Riddle me something.

[dieselfan12]

Not to mention the full support of Bosch on their injectors.
In case everyone hasn't figured it out yet...dieselfan is talking about the Banks race trucks....either the TypeR or TypeD. He's not talking about his personal truck. Unless dieselfan's name is Gale.

Not bashing here...just clarifying what's being discussed. I got the impression some in this thread thought he was talking about his personal truck.

We've done a lot that hasn't made it to a vehicle, so the info is not vehicle specific.

Having a good injector does help with efficiency, but it’s not all of it. We've used some of the same injectors you guys are using too, still had very low BSFC numbers. We are not running magical injectors, if that’s what you are implying.

 

[JOHNBOY]

We’ve made over 800hp with one stock CP3 and without nitrous. Not sure if anyone else has. It seems most people making over 600hp on fuel only are running two. With most engine control systems it’s hard to get enough fuel in without injecting too late or too early, so you may end up needing that much fuel. Don’t know. I heard people say they picked up power with the second pump, but this may be a band-aid for another issue.

Two pumps are used to help maintain fuel pressure not double the volume of fuel injected. They really help in maintaining rail pressure. That is the real reason. Also with a second pump you can more easily control the pump shaft speed. The CP3 in the valley spins the same rpm as the crank. You underdrive the second pump to help prevent pump float at high RPM. I do not consider it a bandaid. Just a different way of approaching things. Two pumps can provide way more fuel then needed. Why we really use them is to insure the quality (ie pressure) of the fuel. No different then the two bottles of N2O you use for intercooling. Do you need two bottles? From what you said in the other thread it doesn't sound like it. But you do have them. Why? Most likely to insure you can maintain the pressure you want. To me water is a better and cheaper way but to each his own. Does that make N2O a bandaid? No. Just a different way of doing things.

The above is not meant to be a flame it is meant to be constructive.

 

[JOHNBOY]

I hope your engines BSFC is not that high, but with the amount of smoke I've seen on some engines, maybe. That's a ton of fuel that could have been burned. We've had engines as low as 0.28 on #2 fuel only by correcting the airflow and fuel strategy. Even our fuel only race engines at peak power are not even close to a BSFC of 0.6. We spend 1000s of hours designing and testing our systems, using data acquisition, combustion analyzers, etc. The more efficiently and effectively you get the air in and out of the engine, combined with correct fuel control, the better your engine efficiency will be.



We haven't had an issue with the injector body. There is always a choke point in the system, I'm sure at some point the injector body could be.

I honestly do not know what my BSFCs are. I would need fuel follow data that I do not have to figure it. I really have only used BSFC for figuring injector sizing. The rule of thumb I was told was for an NA gas engines use .5 to .55. For a supercharged engines .6 to .65. For turbocharged engines .65 to .7.
So what gives? What am I missing here?

My tuning was finalized on the dyno. I was not using a wide band O2 sensor. I would like to try using one on it. The exhaust was routed out of the building so I had no idea how much it smoked. We just tuned it for max power. It definalty smokes. My GN would puff a little black smoke under hard WOT. Not uncommon from what I have seen of other turbo cars

As far as smoke. My wife'sLBZ smoked stock. My wife daily drives that truck and did not care for the smoke or for cleaning the bumper. I added some timing and messed with the boost a little to fix it. Even thought it does not smoke. It gained no peak power over stock on the dyno. It did get a little faster at the track. Busting into the 15.4s.:woohoo:

 

[Burner]

From this, you can see why there is more potential to make power with an 8-cylinder engine over a 6-cylinder engine.

yes and no. Depends on what you are doing with it. Perhaps you might say "in racing applications" several holes are better than a few. .......IMHO

BTW, nice posts. Thanks

 

[dieselfan12]

I honestly do not know what my BSFCs are. I would need fuel follow data that I do not have to figure it. I really have only used BSFC for figuring injector sizing. The rule of thumb I was told was for an NA gas engines use .5 to .55. For a supercharged engines .6 to .65. For turbocharged engines .65 to .7.
So what gives? What am I missing here?

My tuning was finalized on the dyno. I was not using a wide band O2 sensor. I would like to try using one on it. The exhaust was routed out of the building so I had no idea how much it smoked. We just tuned it for max power. It definalty smokes. My GN would puff a little black smoke under hard WOT. Not uncommon from what I have seen of other turbo cars

As far as smoke. My wife'sLBZ smoked stock. My wife daily drives that truck and did not care for the smoke or for cleaning the bumper. I added some timing and messed with the boost a little to fix it. Even thought it does not smoke. It gained no peak power over stock on the dyno. It did get a little faster at the track. Busting into the 15.4s.:woohoo:

Diesel engines are more efficient than gasoline engines. Lean burn direct injected gas engines are getting closer, but still not there. That’s the difference in BSFC. Basically, BSFC is a measure of how much fuel you are using to make power. If your engine uses 250lb/hr of fuel to make 500hp, then you have a BSFC of 0.5. If your engine uses 300lb/hr of to make 500hp, then you have a BSFC of 0.6. It takes 50lb/hr more fuel to make the same power, therefore, the engine is less efficient.

Smoke – the smoke you see is hurting your engine efficiency, not necessary your power. The reason it makes more power is because with the changes you made, more fuel is getting burned in the cylinder. At the same time there is fuel being wasted. The later you leave the injector on, the less you will gain out of the fuel and the more you will “see”. You may see a power increase, but it will smoke. Optimizing the injector size, fuel timing and duration to effectively burn all the fuel in the cylinder at high hp levels and at high engine speeds is very difficult.

 

[joefarmer]

How does BSFC relate to VE in a turbocharged application? Not at all? Everything I've read points to VE >100% for turbo'd engines. Does that mean BSFC goes down when boost goes up?

 

[McRat]

This diesel crap can get confusing.

So you need to go back to basics:

Cram in more fuel.
Cram in more air.
Repeat until something breaks.
Put in stronger parts.
Cram in more fuel.
Cram in more air.
Repeat until you run out of money or your wife leaves you.

 

[joefarmer]

AKA the Formula-1 rule for fabrication- build it smaller until it breaks, then go up one size.

Seriously, if we just looked at some of the things we do trying to make power, the science behind it would argue directly against us.

As a second side note, I'd also once heard that at 100% burn, a diesel still produces slight particulate matter. Enough to be noticeable at least.

 

[dieselfan12]

This diesel crap can get confusing.

So you need to go back to basics:

Cram in more fuel.
Cram in more air.
Repeat until something breaks.
Put in stronger parts.
Cram in more fuel.
Cram in more air.
Repeat until you run out of money or your wife leaves you.

Ha ha
Yeah, that's basically it. At least for drag racing. Fuel economy isn't high on your list...

 

[dieselfan12]

How does BSFC relate to VE in a turbocharged application? Not at all? Everything I've read points to VE >100% for turbo'd engines. Does that mean BSFC goes down when boost goes up?

VE is a little different than BSFC. VE is a measure on how well your engine (air pump) is processing the air. BSFC is a measure of power out per unit of fuel. VE is important, but for different reasons. There is also BSAC too, which is a measure of power out per unit of air. All the information goes into looking at how to make your engine more efficient in the operation range you want to run at.

At higher boost levels, in most cases your engine can move more air. Leading to high VE's. Boost can be a very good thing. Air density is more important. More boost isn't the goal, higher air density is. More air density, the more fuel you can add, the more power you can make.

 

[Burner]

So, with a longer stroke your 'duration' (pulse width?) is longer and your timing is more advanced or could be?

 

[BFD99]

wow, although most of this stuff is over my head, i really enjoy reading something actually useful posted by a banks employee. Thanks Dieselfan12!!!
:rockwoot:

 

[Brayden]

We put 596/1081 down on a single CP3 with a cheetah. I think that's the highest single CP3 LBZ I know of. At 15% loss that would be 685.4 on an engine dyno.

Dude, 800 on an engine dyno with a single CP3 is still a record by at least 100HP. Thinking the highest single CP3 trucks are 580rwhp best, or about 700 at the crank.

You gotta admire that.

 

[Idaho CTD]

Rob did around 620 ish hp uncorrected on a single stock cp3. That is 713hp with 15%. I don't doubt there is more there with some tweaking.

What we dont know is if Banks is using a stock LBZ CP3 or some other pump that has a higher flow from the factory. Stock CP3 only means they haven't modded it not wether or not it's the same part as everyone else. The newer 6.7 cp3's are rated for higher flow then the others. There is no doubt that refining the fuel system can see gains but if dual pumps can go there without the hassel why mess with it? Now if Bosch is doing it for you then by all means let them have at it.

 

[dieselfan12]

Rob did around 620 ish hp uncorrected on a single stock cp3. That is 713hp with 15%. I don't doubt there is more there with some tweaking.

What we dont know is if Banks is using a stock LBZ CP3 or some other pump that has a higher flow from the factory. Stock CP3 only means they haven't modded it not wether or not it's the same part as everyone else. The newer 6.7 cp3's are rated for higher flow then the others. There is no doubt that refining the fuel system can see gains but if dual pumps can go there without the hassel why mess with it? Now if Bosch is doing it for you then by all means let them have at it.

We use a stock LBZ/LMM CP3NH that anyone can buy from a dealer. It's not modified in any way other than a pressure tap here and there to hook up to our data acquisition. There are a few different CP3's out there. The later model ones (NH version) have a higher flow rating. The later model pump will not fit in the early block without modifying the block valley. The NH has a longer plunger and Isuzu/GM made a change to the LBZ block to fit the pump.

 

[Brayden]

Is this an LMM change or LBZ change because guys are putting LBZ CP3's on LLY's and LB7's all day long. I could understand if it were the 6.7 or LMM CP3 because not too many have been seen yet.

 

[Brayden]

I should have said single CP3 and single turbo

You guys have it with the twins.

Rob did around 620 ish hp uncorrected on a single stock cp3. That is 713hp with 15%. I don't doubt there is more there with some tweaking.

What we dont know is if Banks is using a stock LBZ CP3 or some other pump that has a higher flow from the factory. Stock CP3 only means they haven't modded it not wether or not it's the same part as everyone else. The newer 6.7 cp3's are rated for higher flow then the others. There is no doubt that refining the fuel system can see gains but if dual pumps can go there without the hassel why mess with it? Now if Bosch is doing it for you then by all means let them have at it.

 

[JOHNBOY]

Rob did around 620 ish hp uncorrected on a single stock cp3. That is 713hp with 15%. I don't doubt there is more there with some tweaking.

What we dont know is if Banks is using a stock LBZ CP3 or some other pump that has a higher flow from the factory. Stock CP3 only means they haven't modded it not wether or not it's the same part as everyone else. The newer 6.7 cp3's are rated for higher flow then the others. There is no doubt that refining the fuel system can see gains but if dual pumps can go there without the hassel why mess with it? Now if Bosch is doing it for you then by all means let them have at it.

He also has a trap speed of 112 which puts him in the 625 to 650 RWHP depending on his race weight. My CCSB LBZ weights 6800. If Rob's is the same weight as mine that put right around 640rwhp. Using the 15% loss I have seen as a WAG it puts his FWHP at 750.

We use a stock LBZ/LMM CP3NH that anyone can buy from a dealer. It's not modified in any way other than a pressure tap here and there to hook up to our data acquisition. There are a few different CP3's out there. The later model ones (NH version) have a higher flow rating. The later model pump will not fit in the early block without modifying the block valley. The NH has a longer plunger and Isuzu/GM made a change to the LBZ block to fit the pump.

I have a LBZ pump in a early 02 LB7 block. Only issue was the regulator is different.

How does BSFC relate to VE in a turbocharged application? Not at all? Everything I've read points to VE >100% for turbo'd engines. Does that mean BSFC goes down when boost goes up?

Forced Induction ups the BSFC on gas engines. I would think the same is true for diesel. Now a diesel is different in that it is not air throttled so the Air / Fuel ratios can vary much more widely. Sure you can run a diesel at 25:1 AFR but are you making good power? The accepted Stoichiometric AFR for gasoline is 14.7:1. That is where combustion is most efficient. Max power is at a lower AFR. My old Buick liked 12.25:1.
Stoichiometric AFR for diesel is 14.55:1. Very close to gas. But I would think that max power will come at an AFR below 12:1. Watching the AFR is one of this years many do things.

 

[joefarmer]

I've been keeping my eyes open for a racepak for that very reason, AFR. So is it true at 14.55:1, you can see the diesel particulate matter in the exhaust stream aka smoke?

 

[Brayden]

We can use an innovate motorsports LM-1 wideband in conjunction with EFILive. Nobody has really messed with it though, not a real "need" to or want I guess that is.