Superheating water injection

ok quick question what makes you think you can change the proven rules of a internal combustion engine rule number 1. the more air you can stuff into a cylinder the more power is made this is why people run turbo/superchargers but the problem with them is they heat up the air when compressed which is why we run intercoolers to cool down the intake charge a intercooler can be many things a air to air , air to water, or a chemical intercooler like injecting water, water/meth, or nitrous
 
I'm talking a liquid here; thermal expansion isn't that much of an issue.

If it's really hot water, then it's going to turn to steam much more readily after it leaves the orifice. And it's the liquid-to-gas phase change that absorbs heat from the intake charge.

It's going to easily do that when it gets sucked into the cylinder anyways. The small water droplets will pick up enough energy getting into the cylinder to be ready for the liquid-to-gas phase change.
 
Are we trying to cool the intake charge or are we trying to limit cylinder temperatures?

At 1000 PSI, water boils at 550 degrees. At boost pressure of 40 PSI, it boils at 267 degrees. If it's 550 degrees when all of a sudden it finds itself at 40 PSI, it's going to boil instantly.

Will it drop intake temperatures to below it's boiling point? I don't think so.

But, what will it do when it finds itself in the combustion chamber, still really hot, and still absorbing energy to maintain it's boiling point?



Your determined to net some big power with that 1000 psi of water injection!
:hehe:
 
It's going to easily do that when it gets sucked into the cylinder anyways. The small water droplets will pick up enough energy getting into the cylinder to be ready for the liquid-to-gas phase change.

It takes time for the water to heat to its boiling point, and then it takes time to boil.

Something tells me that it takes a longer time to heat to the boiling point than it takes to boil.

If that's true, then injecting it at the boiling point will save time, and therefore I would think that it would allow you to put in more.

If it's not true, then I don't see it making a positive difference at all.

Regardless, we assume that it does go through a phase change before it exits the piston. I don't know how we can know that for sure, but we're assuming it. So we assume that it does have time to heat up and boil.

Are we sure that it cools down the charge air to the temperatures as fast as we think it does? How can be be sure that temp drops we see aren't due to liquid water accumulating on the IAT sensor?

joefarmer said:
You're also not thinking of the air and water mixture reaching a temperature equilibrium.

Assuming that the liquid water is undergoing it's phase change very rapidly, then as long as liquid water is in the cylinder, it's going to maintain the cylinder temperature at the water's boiling point for the given cylinder pressure. Correct? That's how those three phase diagrams work?

What's peak cylinder pressures reached on compression stroke?

Joesixpack said:
Your determined to net some big power with that 1000 psi of water injection!

It flowtests at 1550. :rockwoot:
 
It takes time for the water to heat to its boiling point, and then it takes time to boil.

Something tells me that it takes a longer time to heat to the boiling point than it takes to boil.

So close but no cigar!!!! Yes your right it takes longer to heat to the point of boiling becasue thats when its absorbing all the heat

If that's true, then injecting it at the boiling point will save time, and therefore I would think that it would allow you to put in more.

Dead wrong, once its stored the heat, it takes very little extra to make the phase change

If it's not true, then I don't see it making a positive difference at all.

Its not true banish the thought


Regardless, we assume that it does go through a phase change before it exits the piston. I don't know how we can know that for sure, but we're assuming it. So we assume that it does have time to heat up and boil.

Its not boiling or phase changing during combustion, pressure is keeping it in liquid form and could superheat (hotter than boiling but not phase change)



Are we sure that it cools down the charge air to the temperatures as fast as we think it does? How can be be sure that temp drops we see aren't due to liquid water accumulating on the IAT sensor?

THE BEST water can do is bring the air temp down to equilibrium with the water temp that you are injecting.... inject hot water-get hot air,,,,inject cold water get cold air

Assuming that the liquid water is undergoing it's phase change very rapidly, then as long as liquid water is in the cylinder, it's going to maintain the cylinder temperature at the water's boiling point for the given cylinder pressure. Correct? That's how those three phase diagrams work?

What's peak cylinder pressures reached on compression stroke?

The water will heat to what ever level time/exposure lets it and will be in a superheat condition due to cylinder pressure, when it leaves the combustion, any water that is hot enough will flash off as steam, from that point on condensing




It flowtests at 1550. :rockwoot:

You seem determined to pump a bunch of water.......I'd be more concerned about bending rods from too much flow, more so if your running stock compression.

At some point during combustion its liquid.....Non compressible!!!!!!!!!

Use water to control egt's!!!! It going to hardly make you ANY HP let it go........
 
So close but no cigar!!!! Yes your right it takes longer to heat to the point of boiling becasue thats when its absorbing all the heat
Dead wrong, once its stored the heat, it takes very little extra to make the phase change

Phase change, if it does occur, absorbs more heat than heating to the boiling point. I don't understand how you challenge that.

If it's not boiling in combustion, what about compression? If I heat it to 500 degrees, that will boil at any pressure below 700 PSI. Right? If I heat the water, how will phase change not occur? Will the pressure increase to a point that it drops back into liquid water? Does pressure in a cylinder drop all ambient humidity to liquid water?
THE BEST water can do is bring the air temp down to equilibrium with the water temp that you are injecting.... inject hot water-get hot air,,,,inject cold water get cold air

500 degree water is not hot compared to 1500+ degree cylinder temperatures. I'm not looking for anything but cylinder temperature reduction.
 
ok i am trying to think like you but its really hard so this is the easiest way i can explain it
if you inject hot water it takes less heat to get it to steam ( your idea ) but if you inject cold water it takes more heat to make it boil so by injecting cold water in you are lowering the cylinder temp and egt
 
No need to overanalyze this; you can't expect to lower the cylinder temperature by looping waste heat back into it... model the engine as a closed thermal system and it'll burn down in short order.

Now, if higher performance were your goal, there's a better place to inject your hot water - just use an insulated external, jacketed coil on the downpipe and spray into the exhaust manifold flange... the phase change to steam expands the water molecules ~1700X, so shaft HP goes through the roof (along with spool-up & boost), while exhaust tract temps are suppressed - makes life easier for the hard parts.

I designed this system a couple years ago, but haven't pried loose the funds & shop time for a prototype yet. It wouldn't be viable for light-duty gasser turbos, but the industrial-strength diesel turbos (especially the turbine) should keep their durability with moderate use... don't want to spray too much water anyhow, since you'd get on the wrong side of the thermal efficiency curve.

Up to a certain point - for a given amount of exhausted combustion gas - the expansion energy of the water's phase change is greater than it's evaporative cooling effect.
 
Phase change, if it does occur, absorbs more heat than heating to the boiling point. I don't understand how you challenge that.

If it's not boiling in combustion, what about compression? If I heat it to 500 degrees, that will boil at any pressure below 700 PSI. Right? If I heat the water, how will phase change not occur? Will the pressure increase to a point that it drops back into liquid water? Does pressure in a cylinder drop all ambient humidity to liquid water?


500 degree water is not hot compared to 1500+ degree cylinder temperatures. I'm not looking for anything but cylinder temperature reduction.





Give it a try....let us know how it works for you.....:bang
 
Now, if higher performance were your goal, there's a better place to inject your hot water - just use an insulated external, jacketed coil on the downpipe and spray into the exhaust manifold flange... the phase change to steam expands the water molecules ~1700X, so shaft HP goes through the roof (along with spool-up & boost), while exhaust tract temps are suppressed - makes life easier for the hard parts.

Interesting, so by injecting the water in the exhaust manifold and having it flash to steam you could build boost at the line regardless of the size of turbo you are running. Obviously the right conditions would have to be met to ensure it would flash to steam (easy to monitor EGT's and drive pressure). You could also inject it at the end of the run to maintain the boost. Rig up a controller to only inject enough at the line to build X amount of boost, then flip a switch and have it inject water once boost drops below Y amount of boost and increase flow to maintain boost reading at Y amount. Obviously you would want to shutoff the water injection once it falls below a certain level of boost to prevent filling your exh. manifold with water after you stop...

Think it will work?
 
Interesting, so by injecting the water in the exhaust manifold and having it flash to steam you could build boost at the line regardless of the size of turbo you are running. Obviously the right conditions would have to be met to ensure it would flash to steam (easy to monitor EGT's and drive pressure). You could also inject it at the end of the run to maintain the boost. Rig up a controller to only inject enough at the line to build X amount of boost, then flip a switch and have it inject water once boost drops below Y amount of boost and increase flow to maintain boost reading at Y amount. Obviously you would want to shutoff the water injection once it falls below a certain level of boost to prevent filling your exh. manifold with water after you stop...

Think it will work?

The only way it would work is with a mini boiler setup that you saved energy up in a previous run or heat up cycle, (but it would work)
You can't just inject water before the turbine and expect it to flash off if there isn't even enough heat there to spool it.


I like this better......capture waste heat and convert it back to mechanical
0810dp_04_z+cummins_isx_diesel_engine+waste_heat_recovery_hardware.jpg
 
Think it will work?

I know it will work - after formulating the idea for the Hydro-Spool, I researched it's possible previous incarnations & applications, and presented the proof of concept theory to a combustion engineering peer group.
On both counts, my idea held water (pardon the pun)... like everything else under the sun - it's been done before; and the math adds up from a physics (thermodynamic laws) point of view.

It's viable - but is it feasible? Or cost-effective?
There's a reason it's been shelved for 2 years.

The only way it would work is with a mini boiler setup that you saved energy up in a previous run or heat up cycle, (but it would work)
You can't just inject water before the turbine and expect it to flash off if there isn't even enough heat there to spool it.

Exhaust gas temperature is almost never below ~400*F, so high pressure water heated to that approximate energy state can easily flash into steam when injected into the exhaust tract.
 
Like I said, truck would need to be fitted with a boiler, and all the controls, feed pump you name it. No one with out a ticket should be even thinking about it.
 
Phase change, if it does occur, absorbs more heat than heating to the boiling point. I don't understand how you challenge that.

If it's not boiling in combustion, what about compression? If I heat it to 500 degrees, that will boil at any pressure below 700 PSI. Right? If I heat the water, how will phase change not occur? Will the pressure increase to a point that it drops back into liquid water? Does pressure in a cylinder drop all ambient humidity to liquid water?

This is very good discussion IMO. Now, we both agree that the most heat is absorbed from the liquid to gas transition. My ASSUMPTION is that no matter how cold the water going into the cylinder is, there is enough heat inside the cylinder when it is firing that there's NO way the water can make it out of the cylinder without being a gas. Therefore, the benefit of heating it up before is negated. It is hard for me to imagine the liquid being in direct contact with the combustion process and not getting translated to the vapor state. Remember, a diesel cycle takes much longer to occur than an Otto cycle (gas engines, for those wondering). This means the water has more opportunity (or time) to vaporize. In a gas engine, there's basically one big POP! and the combustion is done. In this case, the water may not be exposed to the flame long enough to transition if it enters cold. This scenario may yield better to pre-heating IMO.

I've studied Thermodynamics and the laws of Heat Transfer extensively in school, and without doing a calculation, this is my intuition about it. Actually, if I can dig up some of my old books I can better answer this question. Putting some hard numbers on it would actually be pretty easy using the RPM (piston speed), fuel flow, water flow, and water inlet temperature.
 
You seem determined to pump a bunch of water.......I'd be more concerned about bending rods from too much flow, more so if your running stock compression.

At some point during combustion its liquid.....Non compressible!!!!!!!!!

Use water to control egt's!!!! It going to hardly make you ANY HP let it go........

If the water is liquid at the BEGINNING of compression, only then would it be a big deal for rods bending. The problem would come if you vaporize the water, then the compression turns it back into liquid at the top of the stroke.

I would argue that by controlling EGTS, you are effectively ABLE to make more horsepower. By lowering the EGT's with water, you can do things like run bigger injectors, or turn up duration to allow for more fueling. Water is an INDIRECT power adder.
 
Like I said, truck would need to be fitted with a boiler, and all the controls, feed pump you name it. No one with out a ticket should be even thinking about it.

I already have the high pressure pump and computer controls, all I'd need to put the water into the manifold is a solenoid, steel line and nozzle... Interesting idea.

This is very good discussion IMO. Now, we both agree that the most heat is absorbed from the liquid to gas transition. My ASSUMPTION is that no matter how cold the water going into the cylinder is, there is enough heat inside the cylinder when it is firing that there's NO way the water can make it out of the cylinder without being a gas. Therefore, the benefit of heating it up before is negated. It is hard for me to imagine the liquid being in direct contact with the combustion process and not getting translated to the vapor state. Remember, a diesel cycle takes much longer to occur than an Otto cycle (gas engines, for those wondering). This means the water has more opportunity (or time) to vaporize. In a gas engine, there's basically one big POP! and the combustion is done. In this case, the water may not be exposed to the flame long enough to transition if it enters cold. This scenario may yield better to pre-heating IMO.

I've studied Thermodynamics and the laws of Heat Transfer extensively in school, and without doing a calculation, this is my intuition about it. Actually, if I can dig up some of my old books I can better answer this question. Putting some hard numbers on it would actually be pretty easy using the RPM (piston speed), fuel flow, water flow, and water inlet temperature.

The critical temperature of water is 700 degrees and the critical pressure of water is 3200 PSI. This means that above 700 degrees, water is ALWAYS vapor. Above 3200 PSI, water is ALWAYS liquid. And above 700 degrees and 3200 PSI, it's a supercritical fluid with liquid and vapor qualities. Does supercritical fluid compress?

Phase-diag.svg


I wouldn't imagine that liquid water in the power stroke would be a problem; the piston is moving down on the power stroke, so a non-compressible fluid shouldn't cause rod bending.

Having liquid water in the compression stroke has to be dangerous. If cylinder pressures on compression stroke reach over 3200 PSI, than any water present, ambient humidity included, will condense and become liquid. How much boost pressure do we need before we start seeing that cylinder pressure?

The part that I find weird is how fast injected water can change intake temperature through convection. If we take a 300 degree air charge, inject 32 degree ice water into it, then eight inches down the air intake, the intake air sensor is registering 120 degree charge air. On an engine moving at a decent RPM, we have to be talking milliseconds of time for the water and air to transfer that much heat. Yet, we know it happens that fast. I can't really believe that fast temperature drop is a result of water accumulating onto everybody's IAT probes over the last 20 years and misleading people. So I guess it's a great demonstrator of the amazing capabilities of atomization.

So short of mass misinterpretation of IAT gauges, there's no doubt that ice water cools down charge air greatly and rapidly. And that is very effective in increasing mass flow into a cylinder and reducing EGT's, so that's the operating understanding most people have.

If we heat the water, we could force it to phase change, rapidly. But does ice water ever undergo a phase change before TDC compression? If we use the "temperature equilibrium" theory, and assume that all of the finely atomized water droplets are the same temperature as the intake gas, then we know that it doesn't usually phase change in the intake, since the intake is usually kept below the boiling point of the water at that pressure. Pressures and temperatures increase as a piston compresses; does cylinder air temperature ever increase above water's boiling point at a given cylinder pressure? That'd be a calculus problem best graphed out on a TI-89, I think that the answer is "yes" though. It seems like cylinder temperatures can exceed 700 degrees while being less than 3200 PSI.

If finely atomized water can absorb sensible heat fast enough to remain in "temperature equilibrium" with the cylinder air, then absorbing sufficient heat during compression to keep on the gas side of the phase diagram seems possible. If atomized water does absorb heat that fast, than the only danger is that there is so much water in the cylinder that there isn't enough heat to keep it all gaseous. Or that the water is not atomized finely enough to absorb heat fast enough. Or that cylinder pressures exceed 3200 PSI.

If the water is liquid at the BEGINNING of compression, only then would it be a big deal for rods bending. The problem would come if you vaporize the water, then the compression turns it back into liquid at the top of the stroke.

I would argue that by controlling EGTS, you are effectively ABLE to make more horsepower. By lowering the EGT's with water, you can do things like run bigger injectors, or turn up duration to allow for more fueling. Water is an INDIRECT power adder.

If we heat water before injection, it will have to absorb less heat to turn into a gas, so it will be less likely to condense into liquid at any pressure below 3200 PSI. The question is whether it would be beneficial, and it doesn't seem like more, hotter water would be better than less cold water, provided that the cold water has time to absorb sufficient heat, which it seems like it does.
 
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