Swole...Again!

doug60 said:
David
Glad you got her fixed up.
Injectors, somebody owes you an explanation. After all you have been through maybe a steak dinner.
doug
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:) I like Steak!! lol


Well I know chit happens and will happen.
I just wished it hadden't happened to me so often.

As for the injectors, I know nothing was done intensionally to make them run bad but something was missed I guess..

Don did help me for a long time and in many ways. I will always be greatful for that help. I know this is probably a very isolated case and hope everyone will see it as that.

My goal at this point is to do WhatEver it takes to STOP having issues and having to work on my truck of have it down for 5 months at a time...

I really just need to enjoy it for a while.. Even if that means taking it easy and not racing... I do however want to make some passes for fun!
I love drag racing and will try to make some passes soon for some new times just as soon as Marco can get my stix figured out...

I'd LOVE to see a high 10 someday and then just enjoy driving it as a totally Stock looking street truck...:rockwoot:
 
Wow...what a difference, nice startup.

Pretty sure in at LEAST one or more PM`s I suggested a different route on injectors......:poke:

Leave the MP8 off the truck as well....between the idiot that thought up capped rails and pressure boxes, Don has made a small fortune repairing the damage.

On the injectors......I wouldn`t run that set you sent away unless the Pope really did bless them. Grab a new set of stainless, along with Marco`s wonder nozzles and go to town. (I know more money....BUT this IS were you spend it, just one of those things)
 
Joesixpack said:
Wow...what a difference, nice startup.

Pretty sure in at LEAST one or more PM`s I suggested a different route on injectors......:poke:

Leave the MP8 off the truck as well....between the idiot that thought up capped rails and pressure boxes, Don has made a small fortune repairing the damage.

On the injectors......I wouldn`t run that set you sent away unless the Pope really did bless them. Grab a new set of stainless, along with Marco`s wonder nozzles and go to town. (I know more money....BUT this IS were you spend it, just one of those things)
Click to expand...



It does sound and run good , doesn't it....

PM's...Ha... You and every other person here too...lol

Folks who know me know that I'm a very loyal person and always try to given everyone the benefit of the doubt...This is why I think I'm successful with dealing with people on my job. Don did a lot for me and for that I'm still grateful. But the facts are the facts with these coming back like this...

Who knows, it could be just coinsidence and they were due to go bad... Who knows...

You have a valid point with the BRAND new sticks....Not the first time I've had those in the "Know" tell me this....
We'll see what wonders Marco can work and then go from there...
I'm sure he'll tell me if they are toast and not worth running again...
The tips are flat Brand New Though... Less than 200 miles I bet..

It's only money.....Right?
 
I just found this. I really cant read every post on all the forums anymore. It is just too busy.

David, are these the injectors I recently sent you nozzles for? If so, are you confident everything went ok on the installation of the nozzles?
 
The reason I ask David is I just received a set of injectors from a guy who did a nozzle swap. He had the same symptoms. Turned out he did not have the nozzle caps tight enough.
 
Soup Nazi said:
I just found this. I really cant read every post on all the forums anymore. It is just too busy.

David, are these the injectors I recently sent you nozzles for? If so, are you confident everything went ok on the installation of the nozzles?
Click to expand...

Hey Don!


Yes Sir.

Chain of events were as follows.

-Truck was running good but I was just starting to lose oil and have a tad of blow by due to my ring issue...

-Then had that tip split while at approx. 75-80 mph at steady throttle. (ISB was in the truck with me headed to Commerce drag strip last year)

-I swapped the tips with some tips that Jeff had at his shop (brand new) but they were 03-04 tips... We just wanted to crank it to see if it ran good or had any signs of a blown HG or bent rod... It ran fine but I didnt' drive it. Jeff was satified that I got lucky with it and it just needed new tips..

-Pulled the whole injectors and sent them to you. This was when you decide you were going to just make me that whole New set of SS injectors with the Super Secret "New Stuff"....Marco even posted back then that he was wanting to help fit that bill for those.....But evidently you had some complaints from other customers about working on the new stuff for me and you decided to send back my old injectors with the new tips...

-You made those new tips (This time with just Bosch nozzles), not the other style tip that split. I am pretty sure you said they were tested but I'd have to research that through pm's, text, or post.

-When I got them back in is when I started having the White smoke and sputtering issue... If you remember I posted a pic of the rear of my truck smoking.. I think I even sent it to you in a PM.... You thought I was going to have a bent rod was your prediction..

- I ordered brand new crossover tubes and installed them... Same crap...

-After it started getting worse and with my oil usage issue, we ALL thought it was just going to be a broken ring or something really bad causing all of this....

-JUST to make sure, you were kind enough to make a completely New set of tips for me... You even had April say that you were using the "New Style" Bosch nozzles this time to make sure... You asked what size I wanted and since I had 3.8's I told you just to make them an even Flux 4.0...

-I installed those New tips and it STILL did the same crap...

-So we rulled out anything on your side involving tips... But like I said before, I can't remember if you actually tested / flowed / or balance the whole injector... I thought you or April said they had but who knows I'm getting old and forgetting stuff..

-So I pulled the engine apart and found my middle (oil scraper) rings were upside down (theres a debate about how, but I'll leave that go...)...Pistons were really bad with oil / carbon up top.... I thought for SURE we found the issue...

-Mahle inspected / Cleaned / Modded my Monotherms and sent me the NEW style rings with a totally different part number and markings... I'm confident that they are in and hopefully marked correctly as well...
Re-installed the piston's and put the head back on...
Made sure everything was Dead Nutz On!!! Lash, Tq, etc...

-First crank up sounded great..Even posted the vid of it...
But after the first drive, within just a few hundred yards it started stumbling and sputtering a bit... Rattling like Crazy too.. (Posted vids of that too)...

-Once warm I installed the only box I had in my truck at the time which was my PPE... It seemed to run better and didn't stumble as much but still rattled pretty bad.......Next day was my first cold start...MAJOR White smoke and sputtering to drive it!!

-This white smoke / sputtering continued until Marco decided to send me his Known to be Good and not rattle injectors out of his 06 with what he says is a 90 hp tip...

-I installed Marco's injectors and the crank up was Perfect!!! No white smoke and it Drove like a brand new truck.. Vids posted of this as well..

-Since then I do still have a bit of rattle but way less... Drives smooth and feels pretty dang strong for only 90's..

-So.... The issue Has to be in the Bodies somewhere.... I could remind you of the history of all my inj. bodies but I'm sure you're tired of reading this.... Let me know what ya think...

Thank you Sir!
 
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Soup Nazi said:
The reason I ask David is I just received a set of injectors from a guy who did a nozzle swap. He had the same symptoms. Turned out he did not have the nozzle caps tight enough.
Click to expand...


Well I could totally see me goofing up at somepoint, but that first set was installed there with you...This is when the problem first started...

You Then made me the other new set and I installed those with the UPMOST regard for getting everything right and tight... I have no clue how someone could put more TQ on those caps / collars than I did....

Same symtoms as the first set that came from you....

Bodies / Solenoids must be the issue....
 
Back in December when your troubles started I asked for the injectors back. Not once, but twice to make certain they were working properly because your trouble came on suddenly. This was when you guys were trying to diagnose the issue.

On December 13th we said to you in a text message:

Fwd: We really need to look at all the injectors and make sure something hasn't gone wrong with them. The whole injector, not just part of them

Your reply was:

Fwd: Its got more blow by than Jeff thinks it should. Its used some oil too. There has to be a ring problem somewhere. Jeff's pretty positive that it needs to come out.

Our reply was:

Fwd: We still want the injectors just to make damn sure. It is going to use oil just because of the pistons

Your reply was:

Fwd: Well, I could pull them and then go ahead and pull the head too. Jeff said he should be able to tell by looking at the cyclinder walls if we have a rod Fwd: or ring problem.

I never received them. I did however send you new nozzles that you installed. In a phone conversation you told April that Jeff could just test the injectors there. Do you recall this? Did you guys test them?


You see, we receive injectors on a weekly basis that have stretched solenoids, solenoids blown completely off the injector assembly, and solenoids where the bobbin is crushed from people running dual pumps or large single pumps. I just did a job on a brand new set of injectors where 5 of the solenoids were crushed and 1 was blown completely off. These had 200 miles on them and were brand new injectors from Bosch. But the pressure destroyed them. This was an extreme case, but many many injector sets have either 1 or more of bunch with this problem if the owner has exceeded the pressure and volume these injectors can handle. Also, many of the solenoids that go out of spec on resistance go back to pressure boxes that crush the bobbin enough to slowly erode the coating on the wire used in the winding.

It only takes one good run with a large volume pump or pumps to tweak a solenoid. Many get away with it for a long time and some dont. At some point people are going to have to realize that these injectors are not designed to handle the volume of fuel that they are being subjected to with half baked ideas of blocking rails or not providing ample fuel volume relief when large pumps are added. 26K is the normal high side they are designed for with much lower solenoid "on-times" VS what programming is adding, but we have graphed over 60K with dual pump set ups and blocked rails and solenoid "on-times" that are north of 2.4 milliseconds. This is akin to running your stock turbo at 80 plus PSI and wondering why it blows up. Or maybe running your tire pressures at 200 PSI hoping for a mileage increase from less rolling resistance.

Remember that the injector opens up and allows high pressure fuel to vent into the area directly below the solenoid when it is activated by the ECM. This fuel volume is calculated when the injector was designed. Extending the time the injector is activated and raising the pressure to 60K OVERWHELMS the return circuit as designed. That high pressure fuel is going to go somewhere and it ends up rushing out of the ports in the solenoid at enormous force. When the force is too high, it warps the solenoid or just blows it apart or off the injector completely.

Not related to David, but needs to be said: I have been posting about block off valves, pressure boxes and fuel volume issues for years. Every forum I am on, I make multiple posts and even start new threads about this issue. The number of people who listen has been mixed. I cant say that many have listened until they have replaced a full set of injectors from either cracked bodies, nozzles blown apart, solenoids exploded or they drive around with warped solenoids and deal with smoke and drivability issues. I have mostly given up on this issue. We repaired our customers cracked injectors and blown up solenoids for the costs of the parts the last 4 or so years. We did not make a mint on repairs ( as someone suggested earlier ) when we charge 75-100 bucks to replace a solenoid that costs us that to purchase and we eat the labor. It has been a huge waste of our time and labor. Phone calls, testing all 6 injectors to find the one warped solenoid and the labor to calibrate the new solenoid only to find that someone bought a block off valve and big pressure box has run its course with us. This also holds true for cracked bodies. We replace 6-7 cracked bodies per week on average. The set up and calibration on a complete body change is more involved than swapping solenoids too. More time wasted. We are done with this type of nonsense and eating the cost as of Jan this year. The prices now reflect us making a profit. If you dont like it, go to your pressure box or block off vendor and ask them to pay. Or your dual pump guy. Or your big single pump guy. Add it up on my end. 1 hour to fully test a set of injectors to find the problem child in the set. Now replace and recalibrate that new solenoid or body and re-bench it to make sure it runs proper. Make any adjustments to the calibration and re-bench. Replace the copper washers and any damaged orings, repackage, make label and ship out. Invoice the vendor. How many hours of schedule/day/week is wasted when this is repeated on 6-7-maybe more sets per week? 10 plus hours? Easily. Just to break even on the parts and some f'tard comes on here and posts how we "make a fortune" on repairs. Stupid mfkr's are everywhere I guess.

I bet none of you even know we built a complete line of pressure boxes. And yes they worked awesome. Fully end user programmable with your own software and mapping of the complete rail. They could even find a bad injector or find one that was weak. This was a massive cost and some trusted people got one back in the day. But, since we build injectors and see the damage that elevated pressure causes we scraped the entire project. We have boxes full of finished product that only need wiring harness connectors. The software is ready and they are the cats fk'n ass on pressure curve tuning, but guess what.......they can break peoples **** so dont even ask for one. I have lived the repair side of this crap. All you guys have to do is open your wallet. Thats a little easier yes? Now you can open it wider or go find another dip**** to fix your issues. Pay to play
 
I love Don M...just love him.

I also like to listen to him...(even though my rail is still blocked right now)...200k of mucho hp and no injector issues!

Who else has experience with the modded relief or dual relief valves? I am thinking two 6.7 valves would be the ticket!

Side note...any news on that cam I was looking to test Don? My injects may head your way for a checkup...
 
Don- what's it like to be perfect, and nothing is ever your fault? What's that like? Maybe I should start blaming all my problems on someone else...

What about the injector tip that broke OFF OF A FORMULA ONE INJECTOR? Was that David's fault? Was he running some crazy rail pressure when that happened?

Give the guy a break, David has gone through hell and back with his truck.
 
WUnderwood said:
Don- what's it like to be perfect, and nothing is ever your fault? What's that like? Maybe I should start blaming all my problems on someone else...

What about the injector tip that broke OFF OF A FORMULA ONE INJECTOR? Was that David's fault? Was he running some crazy rail pressure when that happened?

Give the guy a break, David has gone through hell and back with his truck.
Click to expand...

Yes, he was running a blocked rail and dual pumps and the module that controls the second FCA was defective. No nozzle can take 60K for long. Dont care who makes or modifies it.

Im not on David at all. Not sure how you got that or how anyone could have gotten that.
 
Anyone that can read allready should have seen the part where the manufacturer of the dual pump controller owned up to the rail pressure spike. Duhhhhhhh
 
Don,

Hopefully you had a bit of time to read most everything I posted here.

Things you are right about:

Yes I did not send the stix back a 2nd time like you requested, simply due to the other issue I was having that we (I , Jeff, and many others) thought may be causing this.. Plus my Frustration with this truck and down times was waying HEAVILY on me at that time.. I'd just waited 3-4 weeks to get the stix back with those new tips.... I simply just didn't want to wait again for something I totally thought would have been fine..

Yes , Jeff tested the stix but only just before we sent them to you the first time (If I remember correctly) but you've seen his machine... I don't know what all it's capable of but what he test I'm sure isn't ALL that needs testing... So, not sure what else to say about that..

Yes, I used a pressure box but I've had my Rail Cap removed for a long while and running a modded PRV from TC Diesel...But YES, even Todd says I need a dual PRV set up...
I've never drilled (or whatever you do) that back Banjo bolt for return thats in the back of the head either..Should I??


I completely concead that whats going on with my injectors could TOTALLY HAVE NOTHING to do with you and your work... Three of those bodies are the orig. ones I got from Souce Auto. when I traded my orig. stock stuff in on the Flux 2's he had on the shelf...Two weeks later I had that noise which lead to my no start issue, which lead to me having my Buddy at Dodge Warranty 3 of the bodies (the bad one included) with 3 remand from Dodge...But I have no clue how good they were either since the box said Mexico...




Could that Split tip have had ANYTHING to do with my current issue???
Could that cylinder filling up and making all that noise and smoke while cruising at 75mph / lite throttle have had Anything to do with it?
Because the White Smoke /Sputtering/ Rough running stuff started when I got them back. Or was it just simple coinsidence?


Don, I'm not blaming you at all... Like I've posted Several times here and in reply to many of the F1 haters here, "I simply just want my truck to run!!"
I'm SO tired of having issues with bad luck or my luck, or NO luck, or What the Hell ever anybody wants to call it!

But also, I'm SO sorry to have had to bother you and Jeff and having you guys helping me out only to have me Bother you again when the next "Issue" pops up!!

Those who truly know me, know that I feel bad about needing , accepting the help.. But my passion and love for the sport, power, racing, and just driving is what has kept me going and trying to make it...

Maybe I just simply should have quit a long time ago and got out of this game of power that has now drained me, you, Jeff, and so many that has tried to help me....!

I've never taken the help you gave me for granted...I've always been an advocate for you as well... I believe you make and do good work and will continue to try to send business your way...
But when Marco offered to just send his injectors over Simply to see if that was my problem instead of me buying and replacing EVERY damn sensor and going on wild goose chases, I took him up on it....And I'm Very Glad I did... I'm know now what the problem is and just need to get my injectors fixed or get new ones....

Once again in case ANYBODY missed it.... I am not blaming Don or anyone... If anything, I'm saying that I may have caused it...Who knows!!

I am grateful to you Don (and April) for you're generousity and being willing to help me all this time!!





.
 
cquestad said:
I love Don M...just love him.

I also like to listen to him...(even though my rail is still blocked right now)...200k of mucho hp and no injector issues!

Who else has experience with the modded relief or dual relief valves? I am thinking two 6.7 valves would be the ticket!

Side note...any news on that cam I was looking to test Don? My injects may head your way for a checkup...
Click to expand...

Have you talked with Todd at TCDiesel?

Man!! If I had your luck with trucks, injectors, etc...I'd be OVER the dang moon!!

WUnderwood said:
Don- what's it like to be perfect, and nothing is ever your fault? What's that like? Maybe I should start blaming all my problems on someone else...

What about the injector tip that broke OFF OF A FORMULA ONE INJECTOR? Was that David's fault? Was he running some crazy rail pressure when that happened?

Give the guy a break, David has gone through hell and back with his truck.
Click to expand...


Will, Thanks for getting my back but let me make sure Don and everyone knows this too.

Those tips were the orig. Flux 2's that I beat the Hel! out of...Then had Don mod them to 3.3's (which he didn't charge me for and I'm grateful) and ran them in my first built motor with Dual pumps and the rail cap.....
Then those same tips were modded Again to 3.8's and run for that 2500 miles that third engine lasted..lol :bang

I Did remove the rail cap and a modded PRV went in there... It was not capped when the tip slip...

But I'm conceading that with those tips being modded so many times and lots of pressure, that I don't blame it for "Giving Up"...lol

Just funny that it did it when I was just crusing at low boost and RP....

Soup Nazi said:
Yes, he was running a blocked rail and dual pumps and the module that controls the second FCA was defective. No nozzle can take 60K for long. Dont care who makes or modifies it.

Im not on David at all. Not sure how you got that or how anyone could have gotten that.
Click to expand...


I didn't think you were getting on me per say... I knew / know that you are just venting... It has to be frustrating to waste all that time / money on these type issues...

But like said above...The damage must have already been done... My rail wasn't capped when that tip split...

I got my modded rail and PRV before I put the motor together that REALLY melted down..


cquestad said:
Anyone that can read allready should have seen the part where the manufacturer of the dual pump controller owned up to the rail pressure spike. Duhhhhhhh
Click to expand...


Three possible causes were found and I've typed them many times...I'll do it again so the new comers can see...

PPE said my dual cp3 control modual was "Out of Spec" and replaced it with no charge but "Assured" me that there no way it could have caused the pressure spike.

My RP sensor was found to be bad / dirty / not working correctly once we finished the motor and got it ready to crank... Maybo some trash got in it during the build or maybe it went bad that night at the track...We'll NEVER know...

and 3rd:

My MP8 harness was found to have a very loose / if not totally disconnected lead on one of the wires...

One or All three combined was (IMHO) the cause of my melt down...Not injectors... But thats just me....

Others have another opinion(s)....
 
Pulsation fatigue is a real issue in this particular common rail design. I can go all day on what it is and what is causing it and how to deal with it, but I dont have a ton of time here.

In the end, use pressure, big pumps, blocked rails and all that stuff at your own expense. I am not subsidizing anymore repairs of this type. It is literally killing me. Pressure is like crack. It will get you if you do it too much.

I am not mad at David. He has been nice to speak to on the on the phone and seems like a nice guy to me. But I dont send my Winchester to Remington for repair. Especially after Winchester asked me to send it in for inspection.
 
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