Useful Cam Data

No raise in compression at all, I cut valve reliefs equal to the .070" plus .020" for extra cam upgrade room later. If it would have raised it a bit I would have been happy with that though, that would have provided a little better spool and a little better highway efficiency. No change in rocker arm geometry at all as well. I make pushrods.

I think it cost me $150 to cut the head, not that big of a deal in my opinion. I'm looking for power. If I gained 5hp it is worth it, If I gained nothing it was worth it to me to try out. Improving low lift numbers is very important on a street truck and unshrouding the valve does this. If you think that is not worth it you would hate to see the piles of cash I have "wasted" playing with different combos.
 
you cut .070 to .080 off the heads? why? you gain that many cfm at low lift and the machine time is really worth it? not to mention your raising compression from stock slightly and changing your valve speeds off the seat and changing rocker geometry. not saying it wont work but that seems like a waste of time to me. not trying to start an argument....just my thoughts.

If adding low lift flow this way is a waste of money, you can add me to the list of guys that waste it. Not to mention this also moves your injector tip deeper into the fuel bowl and some of the added benefits of doing so.
 
After taking .080" off the head, how much can you mill it if needed after warping it from getting too hot and blowing a headgasket?

Root of the question really is how much materiel is ther and whats the longevity of cutting so much off.

I'm all for unshrouding the valves, and didn't consider this an option, I like it. Every little bit helps on these heads.

What are the flow benifits of cutting that much off a 24v head?
 
is this done for better drivability on the street, or will it work on a puller thats set up to run in a specific rpm range and thats it. I am just thinking out loud as i plan on having a head done over the winter and this might be something i will look into a little more.
 
Helping low ift flow will help total flow-flow numbers throughout valve lift. I think it would be worth a shot TJ. However the heat involved with a pulling truck and the tinner mating surface would worry me. Hence my question above.

I'm sure Zach will have good answer soon.
 
Helping low ift flow will help total flow-flow numbers throughout valve lift. I think it would be worth a shot TJ. However the heat involved with a pulling truck and the tinner mating surface would worry me. Hence my question above.

I'm sure Zach will have good answer soon.

I'm not running 2000°...maybe 1600° max, and should be less if I can add water.
 
It is hard to say exactly how much it will pick up due to the fact that there are so many different people porting with all of them flowing differently. On normal CR builds I cut .030" to .050" off of the head and use a .020" 12v gasket and then o-ring it. THis still nets the injector .010" to .030" deeper into the hole wich is better for higher timing tunes. THis is with mild cams. with more aggressive cams with engines I am building I take the .080" off, and then clearance the pistons. This puts the injector a little too deep, so I end up shimming it up .020" +/- to get it back to the best depth for the higher timing tunes. I know some might call this a waste but as the technology moves forward power is harder to find so it costs a little bit more per hp the farther you go. A side benefit, I have some guys running around 1,000hp in 04.5 to 07 street trucks for almost 2 years with no melted pistons using this method. Is it 100% gauranteed not to melt down?...no, but I have seen much less piston issues with this method. I had a customer melt his exhaust valves and tulip them after a weekend street racing for $1,000 per run, never lost and never melted a piston. I think it works. But you are free to think it is a waste.

Another thing to think about is the valve is at low lift 2 times and only at higher lift for a very few degrees in comparrison. So many people get hung up on high lift numbers and bragging, but that doesn't always make the most power. It is kind of like guys looking at peak power but not taking into account the whole curve which is important for street driving and drag racing. For hard core pullers max power/torque is more important since they leave the line at that rpm and stay right in the meat and potatoes down the whole track.

Zach
 
One other thing, the size of the tappet can skew the output a little bit because the larger faces of the CR 1.5" sees lift sooner than would a 1.1" 12v tappet. I use a 24v 1.3"(1998-2002) in all of my measurements because it is a mid point between the large and small tappets

Zach

Hey Zach, can you quantify the amount of difference the tappets would make?

I would assume the difference will mainly be when the valve first lifts off the seat and maybe for the first 10 degrees of movement? Have you ever checked valve lift on the same cam with different tappets back to back?
 
Lift won't change with the different tappets but duration will. As the cam rotates it will contact the larger tappet sooner, lifting it sooner, the larger tappet will also remain on the cam lobe longer as it closes, effectively increasing duration.

How much difference .4" of diameter would make, well that's another debate.

I seem to vaguely remember a thread about running CR tappets in a 12v for this very reason.
 
we did a study a while back and there is no concrete number it will increase. We did find that depending on the shape of the lobe, it varies 1 to 4 degrees at differing points. We measured two cams with 3 different tappets on each. And took readings at .010" .050" .100" .200". We noticed the greatest increase in high lift cams (above .320) before .200 lift at the valve with the most additional timing at around 4 degrees with a CR tappet vs a 12v tappet.

Zach
 
Lift won't change with the different tappets but duration will. As the cam rotates it will contact the larger tappet sooner, lifting it sooner, the larger tappet will also remain on the cam lobe longer as it closes, effectively increasing duration.

How much difference .4" of diameter would make, well that's another debate.

I seem to vaguely remember a thread about running CR tappets in a 12v for this very reason.

Yes, I didn't mean max lift (which would be the same), I meant valve lift at different points like 0.050", 0.100", etc.

Thanks Zach. So with the same cam, your lift profile varied as much as 4 degrees (by using 12v tappets instead of cr tappets). Was the bigger difference noticed at the 0.010" and 0.050" measurements or no?
 
Yes, I didn't mean max lift (which would be the same), I meant valve lift at different points like 0.050", 0.100", etc.

Thanks Zach. So with the same cam, your lift profile varied as much as 4 degrees (by using 12v tappets instead of cr tappets). Was the bigger difference noticed at the 0.010" and 0.050" measurements or no?


Just wanted to make sure no one got cunfused. :Cheer:

If I had to guess...I would say the biggest change would be between .050 and .150, because I believe (could be wroong) this is where the greatest differences are in a more agressive/faster opening profile. Therefore the higher degree of change was in the higher lift cams as noted by Zach.

So in theory, a stock cam engine would see a minimal change in characteritcs by changing tappets, while a big cam with crazy lift would see a greater change in charatceristics by changing tappets.
 
Several problems with this milling of the head, if you take material off the deck this lessens the materal that is necessary to achieving even clamping load.

The placement of the nozzle is achieved by changing the piston bowl. I use a very shallow bowl design similar to the Dmax pistons pictures here. before someone takes about the expense of pistons , if you at this level and not spending another $1200 to $1500 on a good set of pistons then you not going to be competitive.

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The particular aspect of combustion chamber and injector relationship is critical in exposing the fuel plume to as much air as soon as possible. This will utilize the available fuel more efficiently.
Excess fuel or late combustion cycle fueling absorbs heat, and causes late burn, leading to high egt’s. The small bowl design of the older Cummins pistons are designed for emissions. If you will look at the progression of pistons designs over the years it’s corresponds to the pressure of the injection systems.

Next to airflow and cam design. The low lift flow is great if you head dosen't almost double airflow at higher lifts.
Milling the heads to unshrowds the valves causes another problem, in that the air is defused in 360 degrees, and impinges on the cylinder bore. The better way to do this is by working the area around the valves in to a chamber.
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There is a lot of potential available airflow in valve seat angles. The stock 30 degree seat is advantageous to low lift air flow. Below .200 lift
The high valve seat angle dramatically open up air flow above .200 lift

Now to well engineer cam design, and how it relates to maximizing airflow, in both maximum effort engine programs, and street performance.

First to clear up the methods on cam measurements and cam design, something I have been involved with for the last 25 years
.
All cam numbers are taken from the tappet, end of story .

The rocker systems , and corresponding ratio’s on any engine is a variable that is taken in account , in acceleration rates at the valve , but again the cam numbers are allalways taken at the tappet, this is the way that every cam designer has used for 50 years .


Next let’s move on to tappet diameter and relationship to cam numbers. the three tappets are the 1.5 common rail lifter, the 1.3 24 valve lifter, and the .9 12 valve lifter.


The lifter diameter bears zero relationship to the duration numbers if the cam has low enough acceleration ramps to utilize the smaller lifter.
When I design a cam profile, I look at the diameter of lifter needed to utilize that profile, if a .900 lifter is all that is needed, then a bigger lifter will have zero effect.
If a cam profile has slow enough ramps to utilize a .900 lifter it would be of little use in any performance application.
Now to what happens if you use too small of a lifter for a given profile, the results would be almost immediate destruction as the cam lobe rides on the edge of the lifter.


My entire ranges of street cams require a minimum of 1.27 lifter diameter, to safely cover the cam profile. My race profiles utilize a lot more of the lifter.

The design parameters of a race cam program, in any engine look only at 4 events. and more than just numbers at .050 .
Diesel performance applications have certain parameters that are set in stone. Overlap (when both valves are open at the same time) is never good in any application where a turbo supercharger is being used. .

The next event is closure of the intake valve. When a given engine combination is running, the air flow in to the cylinder is still moving when most cams are shutting the intake valve. the higher the rpm the more this comes in to play

With volumetric efficiently in the tipical diesel engine in the low 40 % at higher rpm’s the amount of airflow to be gained is dramatic by keeping open the intake a lot longer than most do .

Next is rocker ratio, and cam lobe lift .

On our the new common rail 2.6 engines programs, we are using a 1.85 ratio and .335 lobe lift, this on a 60 mm cam. This larger cam core is almost a quarter of a inch in diameter bigger then stock Cummins. This allows me to design a cam profile that will mover the valve at unheard of rates, and still maintain valve train control.
The high lift numbers, move huge amounts of air for a long time, if the maximum valve is lifted .625, and I do lift them that much, then the valve dwell at .400, .450 ,500 , .550 is much longer .

As far as number and people giving those numbers out there are so many numbers on a cam that are extremely meaningful, and would take hours of conversation to explain them to most cam consumer. I give all the number that are asked for , spend a lot of time helping pick the best profile for a given aplacation

one thing to concider, Just because a cam has bigger numbers at .050 doesn’t mean it’s a bigger cam. There are .200 numbers, acceleration rates, pre ramps and many more aspects. On my race cams I use a pre ramp to help crack open the exhaust cam event to minimize stress on the valve train. Bottom line if you trust you cam designer, then talk to him, and use what he knows.
 
I really hope this didn't just turn into a pissing contest.
 
Thanks for the info Greg. Nice looking port job on the head, too.

Paul
 
I hope this does stay civil, I love the knowledge you can get off these threads but damn when it goes south look out.

Greg that is a nice head is that your work?

Brian
 
No that is Greg at ZZ' custom fabrication’s work, he has gained a lot of flow since that head design, and photos of his new manifolds and heads is not allowed , if you want to see it you will write a check first.

Greg spend a lot of time on his flow bench, and the numbers are unreal; the results are that if you want a head and manifold from him, you will have to get in line. Some of the biggest pulling engine shops have pallets of heads waiting in line. But if you want the best you will just have to wait.
There is no reason that any thread should become anything but information. I do race engine development work, and have done this for years. I freely give information, and show more then I should. But I do know that the diesel engine development is picking up momentum, and the innovations to come are going to make what is being done now seem like basics. I do see a great deal of this up and coming progress, and much of the road has already been traveled many years ago in other venues.
Big ratio rockers, big cam cores, light weight parts, higher flowing heads, and many more parts. Cam shaft design is one of the most critical
 
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