wont run unless at 45* timing

dodge359 said:
Crank down the intake valve on #1, turn the engine over (by hand) until it hits the valve. Mark the dampener with a fixed point on the engine then rotate the engine the other direction (by hand again) until it hits again. Mark the dampener with the same point you used earlier. Now measure between the two marks, the center will be TDC.
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Not the intake! Use the exhaust valve on #1. If you back the engine up to contact the valve, you're doing so on the intake stroke and the valve will be open. But the exhaust remains closed.

Here's how I do it, as I described in the TDR:

You'll need to make a pointer for your harmonic damper using a piece of wire like coat hanger wire or gas welding wire. Fasten it either below off an oil pan bolt or above under one of the speed sensor retaining nuts.

You'll need to bar the engine over both forward and backward.

Now remove the valve cover from #1 and bar the engine until both rockers are loose. Watch their action and you can tell when the intake opens then closes (bottom of intake stroke). The next half rotation is the compression stroke. At that point you're somewhere near TDC. Back the engine up at least a quarter rotation - neither valve should move. Loosen and back the nut for the exhaust valve lash adjustment off about 5 or 6 turns. Now screw the lash adjuster down 4 turns once it contacts the valve. That pushes the valve down a bit. Rotate the engine forward with the barring tool slowly until feel the piston snug up agains the valve. It helps to have someone put their finger firmly on the adjuster to feel when the piston starts pushing on the valve. Be gentle but firm and don't force it. Now mark damper at your pointer. You can put a piece of masking tape on the damper edge and use a pen to mark it.

Now bar the engine BACKWARD about 2/3 to 3/4 rev until the piston bumps up against the valve again. You're rotating back into the intake stroke so your intake valve will open as you come up against the exhaust valve. Mark the damper again at your pointer. Rotate forward until you can see both marks from underneath (that's where you have the best access). Measure the distance between the marks - this will be the short distance between them. Be exact - use a metric scale. It should only be about 4 inches (100 mm plus/minus) between them. Mark the damper with a scratch awl at this point.

Back the lash adjustment screw for the valve off completely so the valve comes back up and seats and rotate the engine forward until your new permanent mark is lined up with your pointer. You're at TDC, closer than the pin will ever get you.

Reset your valve lash on the exhaust and replace the cover.

-Jay


PS. I'm wondering if the pump gear is not indexed properly with the drive gear off the crank, thus the timing pin is not really seating at true TDC. The only way to know is to remove the gear case cover. In any case, the drop-valve method will get true TDC no matter what.
 
Trainrobber said:
WOW... just do the job right...Get the tools you need. Magnetic dial indicator set. Take out # 1 injector, drop in indicator with extention, find exact TDC. No worrys about bending fragile valves by coming up agaisnt them with the piston. remove # 1 pump obstrusctions . Remove gear on front of engine with puller, rotate pump to desired timing height on # 1 and reinstall gear..
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no mention of degrees of dwell? unless you're measuring degrees of dwell and splitting it, you're not finding "exact" TDC
 
Forrest Nearing said:
no mention of degrees of dwell? unless you're measuring degrees of dwell and splitting it, you're not finding "exact" TDC
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.050" from BTDC and .050" ATDC mark your degree wheel and wham... you've got it. Oh and you have to rape a degree wheel and make some new holes.... My method may be more time consuming, but, i have bent valves in the past. THAT cost me a ton of time.
 
I think I like trainrobbers way better for two reasons. One is that I'm a machienst and it just seems more accurate. The other reason is it is how I find TDC when degreeing in gas race engines I used to build in the old days :) Therefore it seems like I'm using my own method that for some reason I never thought about using on my cummins.

Also, for those who set their timing often, you may want to buy a strip of timing tape to mark the dampner after finding it. I dunno how much help this will be to know other degrees besides TDC, but it will at least make finding it easier by not having to look for a small scribe line on the dampner.

George
 
I can understand your concerns about bent valves, but you also have to remember these valves come straight down on top of a flat topped piston (other than the pocket). It's not like it's coming up against one edge of the valve face at an angle. I can see where that would be more prone to bending a stem. With someone putting a finger firmly on the rocker arm right above the valve stem, it's real easy to feel contact. I've done it a dozen times this way with no problems. You don't have to pull an injector and you don't have to set up a gauge. It's really quite easy.

However, as always, there are a number of ways to skin this cat, and all have their pros and cons. Pick the method you feel most comfortable with and go with it. They'll all produce better results if done right than using the timing pin.

Time on!
-Jay
 
Forrest Nearing said:
the timing pin is far from accurate for TDC. use the drop-valve method to find true TDC. bring pump plunger up while turning in the direction of rotation. then double-check after you tighten the monkey snot out of the pump nut!

no offense to your buddy, but it sounds like you guys might be a bit off on your timing setting.

I'm guessing you've got it up around 20-25* and it's running great, and when you backed it off to 16, it's more like 10-12
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I wont take offense as i am the one who timed the truck. I have used the drop valve method several different times and it is the most accurate, we were sorta pressed for time,but i know what 9.6 MM of lift comes out to is it not 35.5* If not i MUST not have a clue. I also know the difference between 10-12 drgrees and 20-25. 20-25 should not blow a headgasket as soon as you start the truck. Nor does it clatter like a full blown pulling truck or become almost imposible to start when its cold or just churn white smoke at an idle which this truck did. 10-12 should run, maybe a little ****ty but not anything like what this truck is running. It will not begin to rev up at, all cold or warm. I am not a Bosch mechanic, but i do know most of the basics. I have become lost with the situation. This all started with this new motor. This pump ran fine on the other, after the swap it was imposible to get running again withought the super high timing. I didnt know exactly what it was because at the time i did not have the timing set. All i knew was it was the only way to get the truck to run. So yes, rather it be the drop valve method or the timing pin the truck will NOT run unless at super high timing. Any ideas.
 
Jim Fulmer said:
I never knew this could actually happen, but that was exactally the deal on my 913(spare) pump, good thing I pulled the Gov housing off to check it out. The upside is we'll get to see what I.I. can get out of the pump.

Jim
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Me either, until I helped screw up a GSK install. :doh:
 
Update!

Well we did the drop valve method and found the the timing pin isn't off by much. Timed it at 16* again and no dice still poppin like crazy and wasn't at all clangy. So we bumped it up to 18*. Double checking both times and still no dice. It runs better and has more clang to it but it still pops up above 2k. Any ideas left besides bad pump?

Also i talked to Kevin and he said the cam and everything in the motor is stock.
 
joefarmer said:
Me either, until I helped screw up a GSK install. :doh:
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It's a good thing I sent the pump in, it had multiple issues. Pulled the soft plugs out and the cam looked bad on #5, so Jason called me on what to do.....how much money to spend. On the teardown the P&B in #5 was the wrong one, like there was and issue there and they changed it to another one to try and cure it.......what an idiot!

I'll have to see how it workes out on the truck as I should have it here by wed or thurs, the flow numbers are not really that high as he sets the plate at 17mm of rack like talk here. I'm going to test/try more on my 887 to see what the difference is.

Jim
 
What kind of pop are we talking does it only do it when reved up slow or when reved up fast to. This is starting to sound alittle like my truck right after I got my truck fire ring from schied it when beautiful then a week later would sputter and pop when reved slow and did it alittle bit when reved fast. Plus it smoke like crazy at idle it would fog for mosquito's in my yard for me. I went though the timing to then I pulled my injectors I had a injector stuck open a piece of spring out of the dv holder itself broke of and got in my injector.

I pull the dv's and holders check them closely take the holders which I'm talking the part the injection lines hook to shake them make sure they don't rattle if they do get a new to replace it, then pull the injector have them tested and gone though to make sure they aren't sticking or stuck.
 
JGK said:
I'm wondering if the pump gear is not indexed properly with the drive gear off the crank, thus the timing pin is not really seating at true TDC. The only way to know is to remove the gear case cover. In any case, the drop-valve method will get true TDC no matter what.
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The timing pin engages the cam gear, so since the pump gear isn't keyed the timing mark on it has no real meaning.
 
KingS said:
What kind of pop are we talking does it only do it when reved up slow or when reved up fast to. This is starting to sound alittle like my truck right after I got my truck fire ring from schied it when beautiful then a week later would sputter and pop when reved slow and did it alittle bit when reved fast. Plus it smoke like crazy at idle it would fog for mosquito's in my yard for me. I went though the timing to then I pulled my injectors I had a injector stuck open a piece of spring out of the dv holder itself broke of and got in my injector.

I pull the dv's and holders check them closely take the holders which I'm talking the part the injection lines hook to shake them make sure they don't rattle if they do get a new to replace it, then pull the injector have them tested and gone though to make sure they aren't sticking or stuck.
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It does the poppin a little on slow rev but does it worse when you stab it to the floor. I'll try the injectors and see what happens with a different set. Yes this thing fogs at idle also. I'll also check the dv holders, hold the spring in em and shake? Or pull everything out and shake?
 
Well i changed injectors and checked the dv's and the holders. It'll free rev fine all the way to 3k but when its under a load (driving it) at approx 2200 or so it starts poppin. Sounds like an ole chevy gasser with no mufflers and straight pipes lol. Got a real nice cackle up high. Pump problems?
 
It does have a blown gasket. This wouldn't cause all this mess would it? I was hoping to get it running right before i changed it....
 
Gasket could cause your issues, I may have missed it in the thread. But, what about fuel pressure?

How many psi at idle and at load on the street. With low fuel pres. the pump wouldn't actually run at the timing as set. It would mechanically run that amount of timing, but your fill times etc... would all be lagging behind. Therefore giving you less timing than previously thought.

~Wes~
 
never thought of that... i'll try a new filter, then a new lift pump i guess and see if it helps
 
sorry I didn't read your post sooner but the spring I refered too you can't see. In the holders if you look in them from the bottom towards where the fuel line goes, you will see like a small washer in there well between that and the the tip of the holder there is a tiny spring in there just shake the holder them self's the holder rattllin won't affect anything but eventually the spring will break up and get in the injector then it effect thing.

the crackling, I seem to lean towards gov springs being wrong are not adjusted right. but Yes I agree check fuel pressure see what it runs at at idle and 2000 rpm when driving then at WOT but even then unless you are at extreme low psi on fuel pressure I wouldn't think that is the problem I run 40 psi at 2000 rpm and driving and at WOT 8 psi and my lift pump is working fine I just have hugh injectors and dv's dumping a ton of fuel and the lift pump can't keep up but the truck runs smooth.
 
Crawler said:
Gasket could cause your issues, I may have missed it in the thread. But, what about fuel pressure?

How many psi at idle and at load on the street. With low fuel pres. the pump wouldn't actually run at the timing as set. It would mechanically run that amount of timing, but your fill times etc... would all be lagging behind. Therefore giving you less timing than previously thought.

~Wes~
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i'd agree...check your lift pump fuel pressure...if no problems there then i would seriously think about having your pump checked out to make sure it is still timed correctly (correctly for the application) as long as it's the original pump on that motor it should be fine, but i've also seen the gov. weight assy. slip and throw the pump timing off too...

also, i always use the drop valve method and have no problem...because 9 of 10 trucks i work on the timing pin is stuck and useless anyways...
 
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