Is a Cam worth it.....the remix+Data

Fixed 1st post....and really interested in this thread as I'm on the list for the next batch of 188/220's

Thanks.

I'm digging through some stock cam pulls that were inertia+load % to make some more runs against the 188/220.

Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing Joe!

Thanks for taking the time to do this comparison. It seems to have opened a lot of eyes.

Maybe the guys with stand alone's and EFI live who can tune their trucks just perfectly might not benefit more with a cam than say the VP crowd or 12v crowd who can't tune their trucks just perfectly. I've seen to many graphs from to many people showing that a cam does in fact increase spool up on the bottom end and carry the power out farther.

Also, do you think that your secondary exhaust housing choking like it is is effecting anything?

That has to be it. When you think about it, everyone knows common rails spool so much nicer than VP's or 12V's simply from what they can do to the injection event.

Well I took that tuning advantage to the extreme, to where there was just no more to be had.

So what seems more apparent is the tune can have more effect on spool than a cam ever will. The gains in the graph below being from only the tune.



(Spool never was a issue especially after going to the stand alone.....BUT everyone always talked about gaining "spool" with a cam so I Included a test I thought would bring it out....ONLY it was the opposite....LOL

On the top end where I was hoping for some gains, I'm positive the secondary and gate is already choked out with the stock cam, a higher flowing cam looking at that exhaust pressure has no where to go the way I see it.

I'm going to try working over the gate some more to see if I can't get some more out of it.

I have seen a multi-angle valve job provide more change than a stock cam to a supposed extreme cam swap. I do think it's possible that some cam makers exploited the available tuning to work with their grinds to provide big changes on paper. Stand alones and EFI style tuning products are going to change so much more in the hard parts end than anyone realizes.

Zach talked to me about drive pressure being bad ju-ju with one of the cams I was looking at. I think it was the 188/220. My manifold pressures don't vary more than 10 psi or so between them on this one and the 6.7 should be even closer. Might want to ask Zach about it in a pm so he doesn't have to put on chain mail on a Sunday. This could be a case where gains are less on an expertly tuned common rail. Very nice data, thank you for sharing.

Joesixpack said:

On the top end where I was hoping for some gains, I'm positive the secondary and gate is already choked out with the stock cam, a higher flowing cam looking at that exhaust pressure has no where to go the way I see it.

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That in itself could be good info. Opening the exhaust valve eariler under a high drive pressure condition, is probably not ideal. I have seen some cam profiles out there that did seem to be setup for that...

I know on my 02, when I put the F1 Helix 2 in it, I did notice a difference. This was sometime ago (okay about 150,000 miles ago). The single turbo I had on at the time, would have high EGT's during cruise up mountain passes. After doing the cam swap, the EGT's dropped about 150 degrees. It was enough to keep me from having to take it out of OD.

Paul

not at all doubting your install skills, but what do you have lash set to? pretty sure Zach has said 10 in, 15 ex is the sweet spot. As others have said too, might have to do with loading the truck on the dyno?

No doubt, Want to make this clear. Had no intention of putting this cam down or Zack, only chatted with him once a while back seemed like a stand up guy.

I had big dreams for this cam!!! Wanted in every way to see maybe not huge gains but gains non the less.

The data is the data though, I mean its solid as to this particular engine. it wasn't only two runs, it was over ten runs min on each with very little difference.

Boost going down 10 lbs is huge, Intake flow HAS to be better. Thinking being if I can improve the situation after the exhaust valve I should show something for it.


Cam is setup 10 and 20. Some measuring it after me might call it 8 and 18.

About the loading......my full power pulls are at full load and even in the lower rpm's there's little to zero gain.

Going to keep an eye on this, but I am thinking like another said, your standalone may be already fixing what the cam is curing in most applications. Impressed that the boost dropped though.

External gate time?

Interesting info

Joesixpack said:

No doubt, Want to make this clear. Had no intention of putting this cam down or Zack, only chatted with him once a while back seemed like a stand up guy.

I had big dreams for this cam!!! Wanted in every way to see maybe not huge gains but gains non the less.

The data is the data though, I mean its solid as to this particular engine. it wasn't only two runs, it was over ten runs min on each with very little difference.

Boost going down 10 lbs is huge, Intake flow HAS to be better. Thinking being if I can improve the situation after the exhaust valve I should show something for it.


Cam is setup 10 and 20. Some measuring it after me might call it 8 and 18.

About the loading......my full power pulls are at full load and even in the lower rpm's there's little to zero gain.

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Joe,

One thing I have always gone about with cams is the following.

On gassers, which I was very into before diesels was that we could pick up 20-40 hp on a cam swap. When cams started appearing for diesels people "were up in arms" cause they did not pick up any HP. What many people do not realize is that on a gasser we have to adjust A/F ratios to get back in range. So yeah, you could swap cams on a gas motor but if you did not add fuel to the air...well there would be loads of detonation or worse yet kaboom. So of course with a cam on a gas motor, more air, more fuel and therefore more HP.


On diesels....not so. We have such a wide operating range as far as fuel rations are concerned that it is difficult to make an apples to apples comparison. Why we are not all running A/F ratio gauges is beyond me and I am pretty sure is will allow for better tuning especially with EFIlive in the market now.

The reason I bring this up is because even on my own truck I have been running a cam for 4 plus yrs now. It makes a big difference in spooling my SB66 and like you said, my egts were dropped almost 200 degrees and drive ability was much better but I am only one.

My question, if you were to add fuel (get back to the same A/F ratio you had before), get you egts back up 150 degrees to where they were before and get back those 10 psi you lost, would you see the benefit of the cam on your truck. These are just questions in the back of my mind. Its what we would need to do on a gasser and with diesel our power output is limited to fuel input, and of course the air to burn the fuel.

I think in terms of gas car every now and then and people in the diesel industry act they they have some secret knowledge at time for everything. In the end, gas and diesel are not so much apart and with GDI engine, we are coming closer together!

Hey I hear you.

Remember though this is a highly over fueled truck to make that number, and the tune is maxed right out. There is simply nothing to be had with fuel and timing it is begging and pleading for more air.

BUT I'm not one to give up.....I'll work the tune a bit to see if something miraculous happens.

And on the spool, I duno......the bottom of that transient test should have shown something significant and when I ran the test over and over it practically made the same sweep as the stocker and when it started to heat soak a bit the lines were under.

Again maybe on a regular tune if you were not kicking the chargers in the ass so hard the cam would show it's colors......

With backpressure being high, i don't know that your going to see gains. I wonder what the results would be if you gate off some drive pressure.

SINNER said:

I have seen a multi-angle valve job provide more change than a stock cam to a supposed extreme cam swap. I do think it's possible that some cam makers exploited the available tuning to work with their grinds to provide big changes on paper. Stand alones and EFI style tuning products are going to change so much more in the hard parts end than anyone realizes.

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No doubt, after the sixty or so hours I had in my head my machinest had a look and said hey cool, now I'll show you where its really at...:hehe:

AS to the tune and skewing the results.....I could have easily made this cam look like a super hero on tune alone.

Look at what that Scheid truck (don't know the fellows names) did on a frickin single and a stand alone, didn't seem to have any issue at all spooling what must be a pretty massive turbine.

White Duramax said:

With backpressure being high, i don't know that your going to see gains. I wonder what the results would be if you gate off some drive pressure.

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Gating anything around the primary has netted nothing but loss of HP, I'll ***** that internal right out on the secondary and might even pull the pucks and shaft right out just to see if it nets me anything on top.

Joesixpack said:

Hey I hear you.

Remember though this is a highly over fueled truck to make that number, and the tune is maxed right out. There is simply nothing to be had with fuel and timing it is begging and pleading for more air.

BUT I'm not one to give up.....I'll work the tune a bit to see if something miraculous happens.

And on the spool, I duno......the bottom of that transient test should have shown something significant and when I ran the test over and over it practically made the same sweep as the stocker and when it started to heat soak a bit the lines were under.

Again maybe on a regular tune if you were not kicking the chargers in the ass so hard the cam would show it's colors......

Click to expand...

Could also be that cams "shine" on single vs twin setups. With twins your taking a lot out of the equation as far as spool goes but the tuning ability of the CR like you said will hide a lot of the benefits to a cam. When EFI is available to the 05's I bet that a stock motor with nothing done to the long block with my setup will make just as much as what I do now since I can't tune my truck and that SSR still does not come close to my old tnt-r tune. Don't have time to go to the dyno every time Marco releases a new update, it gets very expensive.

Was one cam cleaner than the other? Or was it fueled too heavily to tell? Thanks for spending your time on this.