Is a Cam worth it.....the remix+Data

So I made a few more pulls this evening, again I looked back and found some short inertia+load pulls with the stock cam. (They were just quick test runs to check loading and I pulled the throttle before they were complete but the data is still relevant lower rpm spooling)

Data 18 Black 10% Load Stock cam
Data 144 Green 10% Load 188/220

Data 21 Purple 15% Load Stock cam
Data 146 Blue 15% Load 188/220

Data 148 Red Hot tune 15% load vs zero load from before. (I need at least 30%) to pull my peak HP.

AGAIN even on loaded tests the cam change alone is making absolutely no change in spool. Don't know what to say but its just not there.

The hot spooling tune made a huge difference.

Spoolcomparisonloaded.jpg
 
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Chris, If you had some BIG huffer's on that thing with that stand alone, I'd almost fear you'd "Swole" it....lol


Please don't! lol
 
It's nice to see the loaded versus unloaded graphs. My unloaded Dynojet graphs are shaped the same and follow a similar power/rpm curve. I'm jealous of the hot tune curve though. Amazing the difference is spool when you add the load.
 
I'll post that same graph along with boost tonight when I get a min.

IMO this data and the feel of the truck on the dyno, the cam is making no contribution to spooling the chargers.

Not faulting it, frankly I don't think I want a cam that can open the exhaust valve early enough to use blow down for spool. (Actually the thought seems insane.....any cam that would open the exhaust valve early just to capture blow down would surely loose a ton of torque when it was at full load)

Still.....that ten pound drop in boost is undeniable the cam has done its job. But where is the payday......LOL
 
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Joesixpack said:
I'll post that same graph along with boost tonight when I get a min.

IMO this data and the feel of the truck on the dyno, the cam is making no contribution to spooling the chargers.

Not faulting it, frankly I don't think I want a cam that can open the exhaust valve early enough to use blow down for spool. (Actually the thought seems insane.....any cam that would open the exhaust valve early just to capture blow down would surely loose a ton of torque when it was at full load)

Still.....that ten pound drop in boost is undeniable the cam has done its job. But where is the payday......LOL
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For some reason I thought you had a larger set of twins. No wonder you get under that setup so fast. I can see why you may not notice so much of a difference on the cam swap vs. stock. Playing with the timing and fuel with the resolution available to you a 71 mm as a secondary(top) turbo and you may see the difference there. That 64 has to spool up faster than the stock he351!
 
Hamilton Cams said:
Your dyno comparisson, does not even come close to what I would expect the results to be. It is almost counter intuitive. I have had so many people that race, pull and dyno that have shown large gains in torque, power, spool, and throttle response, and reductions in EGT, boost, smoke and fuel consumption that I am a little dumbfounded. You have 10 less Lbs of boost, which means more air is entering the cylinder, I assume you have additional fuel available. More air and fuel means more cylinder pressure which translates to more power and torque. The cam has worked for so many people, there is no reason it would decide not to work for you. In fact the boost decrease with the same HP shows that the cam is doing it's job, but something independant of the cam is a bottleneck.

Your drive pressure is a definite concern which will be compounded by greater volume through the engine. The more air that enters the engine, the more that will be exiting. If what you currently have cannot escape the exhaust stream, allowing more air to enter will greatly exagerate the problem.

Even independant tests done by Jeff Garmon and others, showed huge gains in HP and torque in the lower rpm range, a similiar peak HP number and then huge gains in the higher rpms. I hope what I am about to say does not come off the wrong way but, if it is put together right, the engine has no choice but to work. If you want I would be more than happy to work with you to figure out what is wrong with your setup. If you do not want the help I will understand as some people are fairly secretive with setups. On a side note, my 05 with a 6.7l engine (known for higher drive)was at 52lbs of boost and drive was within a few lbs with a 66/480setup and made right at 900hp. I believe in that cam so much that I will be willing to personally fly to where you are to help you fix the setup, and if you feel it is not right for you, buy back the cam.


I will do whatever I can to help you, call anytime.
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WOW. Now THAT is standing behind your product. Can't ask for better service and support!
 
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wespruett said:
WOW. Now THAT is standing behind your product. Can't ask for better service and support!
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I would have just been happy with ANY gain in spool or power anywhere on the curve.....LMFAO.....:hehe:


Can't deny the loss of boost, so I might as well leave it there. Would I change it out just for less boost and no spool or added power on the curve any where? LOL NO.

Those changing out a cam pushing a 62....LOL what a hoot!
 
Joesixpack said:
I would have just been happy with ANY gain in spool or power anywhere on the curve.....LMFAO.....:hehe:


Can't deny the loss of boost, so I might as well leave it there. Would I change it out just for less boost and no spool or added power on the curve any where? LOL NO.

Those changing out a cam pushing a 62....LOL what a hoot!
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I hear ya. Results are what they are.
 
Joesixpack said:
I would have just been happy with ANY gain in spool or power anywhere on the curve.....LMFAO.....:hehe:


Can't deny the loss of boost, so I might as well leave it there. Would I change it out just for less boost and no spool or added power on the curve any where? LOL NO.

Those changing out a cam pushing a 62....LOL what a hoot!
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I said this for years and my cams with whatever I wanted on them were only 40 bucks a pop including being parkerized; lol. Power wise I never seen a nickels worth of increase worth talking about over a factory 12v camshaft; take the big boost out of the eqation and things might be differant. The little I did notice was just in the very high rpm range 4k-5500 by moving the lobe centerlines around a bit and maybe a tad of duration, lift made No diff. at all. When that int. valve cracks and it has crazy boost behind it, it has little issue filling the cylinder nicely, lol. I've been involved for years with several high boost 10.5 cars and pro mods we have played around like crazy with camshaft grinds all over the map, with a high boost engine platform camshaft changes are nill exp. compaired to NA engines of course gas or diesel.
 
stock600 said:
I said this for years and my cams with whatever I wanted on them were only 40 bucks a pop including being parkerized; lol. Power wise I never seen a nickels worth of increase worth talking about over a factory 12v camshaft; take the big boost out of the eqation and things might be differant. The little I did notice was just in the very high rpm range 4k-5500 by moving the lobe centerlines around a bit and maybe a tad of duration, lift made No diff. at all. When that int. valve cracks and it has crazy boost behind it, it has little issue filling the cylinder nicely, lol. I've been involved for years with several high boost 10.5 cars and pro mods we have played around like crazy with camshaft grinds all over the map, with a high boost engine platform camshaft changes are nill exp. compaired to NA engines of course gas or diesel.
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Bottom line, turbocharging hides a wide range of inefficiencies in engines. Even the guys I deal with making 3-5k manifolds tell me the same thing. All they need to do is get the volume of air required into the cylinder with the right runner length (even that s not extremely important) and there you go. Now like you said, NA that is a very different story.
 
raychem said:
Bottom line, turbocharging hides a wide range of inefficiencies in engines. Even the guys I deal with making 3-5k manifolds tell me the same thing. All they need to do is get the volume of air required into the cylinder with the right runner length (even that s not extremely important) and there you go. Now like you said, NA that is a very different story.
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That does make a lot of sense.

Now I have a cam in mine and when it had a major boost leak for (well, longer than I care to admit) my truck behaved nearly the same in city driving. Obviously not identical, but slow cruising up to 35 MPH (very short drive to work) and even on the high way below 60 MPH, it drove nearly the same as having a turbo and trying to keep boost down (basically trying not to use the turbo and add fuel...economy mode! LMAO). EGT's certainly got warmer faster than it does without a huge boost leak, but it honestly wasn't unbearable.

So I guess I'm saying that in a NA diesel application, a cam would seemingly be useful. :lolly: Either way I enjoy having a cam in my truck, how much it truly helps I couldn't tell you as I do not have back to back data...but it sure helps my ego. LOL
 
SHughes said:
That does make a lot of sense.

Now I have a cam in mine and when it had a major boost leak for (well, longer than I care to admit) my truck behaved nearly the same in city driving. Obviously not identical, but slow cruising up to 35 MPH (very short drive to work) and even on the high way below 60 MPH, it drove nearly the same as having a turbo and trying to keep boost down (basically trying not to use the turbo and add fuel...economy mode! LMAO). EGT's certainly got warmer faster than it does without a huge boost leak, but it honestly wasn't unbearable.

So I guess I'm saying that in a NA diesel application, a cam would seemingly be useful. :lolly: Either way I enjoy having a cam in my truck, how much it truly helps I couldn't tell you as I do not have back to back data...but it sure helps my ego. LOL
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In a NA application...cam has everything to do with power made and rpm range (heads, intake, and bore aside). I think what we are seeing now is the control over the injector, how it functions, fuel delivery , and pressure we inject at. Where we used to see the benefits from changing a cam are not that beneficial any more. As Joe has been able to point out, the control he has over how the engine operates has hidden the benefit of the cam. We are only now getting the benefit of control of our engines where we had none before and were limited to what a "box" programmer could do.

I will note as Joe stated before is that boost drop and the fact that he may be limited by the turbine setup on the chargers may hide some of the benefit of the cam. Only Joe will be able to let us know what he finds with his truck and if he changes his turbo setup.
 
A big set of triples are in the works and they will have compressor speed sensors. Should make for some interesting data.
 
A "box" programmer or a p-pump are very limiting compared to a stand-alone. I truly envy those with the skills and money to be at the forefront of this technology in the diesel industry!!

I am no expert by any means, but I would like to see...lets take Joe's current set-up for example...a series of cams with wildly different exhaust profiles, keeping the intake the same or as similar as possible combined with a few different turbine options. Then see if the cam makes any difference.

I would think exhaust work...be it profile shape, lift, duration, turbine(s), port work, combinations of...would prove a more interesting dialog than complete cam changes alone.

After I win the lotto tonight I'll through some cash at Joe to make it happen! LOL
 
Ended up going with Ultimate tran's and opie's fat shafts. Trans parts should be here shortly to put it back together. Input and output were twisted as well with the intermediate broken so figured it was a good time to go with the larger shafts and see what the next weak link is.
 
Joesixpack said:
Ended up going with Ultimate tran's and opie's fat shafts. Trans parts should be here shortly to put it back together. Input and output were twisted as well with the intermediate broken so figured it was a good time to go with the larger shafts and see what the next weak link is.
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Opie's fat shafts is what I use....not a single problem with them yet. No comparison to the stocker. I have a few pictures of them. You have to get the converter cut and hub replaced as the fat shaft is .180 larger diameter and more spines, but you know that!:hehe:

BTW, triples look so dam good and the results are amazing.
 
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