Is a Cam worth it.....the remix+Data

I thought the new TNTr was the chiznit by the seat of the pants.....till I killed it on the dyno with the stand alone.....LOL

Patience.....hopefully efi can master the 05 and under, nothing against the smarty team but data logging is a HUGE asset. I data log ever pull and key it to the dyno data.

^^ I've got a vid of both pulls stocker with no wind Hamilton with a breeze so its not showing much, my video gal thought the 188/220 was the "blackest" in her words.....LOL
 
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Your dyno comparisson, does not even come close to what I would expect the results to be. It is almost counter intuitive. I have had so many people that race, pull and dyno that have shown large gains in torque, power, spool, and throttle response, and reductions in EGT, boost, smoke and fuel consumption that I am a little dumbfounded. You have 10 less Lbs of boost, which means more air is entering the cylinder, I assume you have additional fuel available. More air and fuel means more cylinder pressure which translates to more power and torque. The cam has worked for so many people, there is no reason it would decide not to work for you. In fact the boost decrease with the same HP shows that the cam is doing it's job, but something independant of the cam is a bottleneck.

Your drive pressure is a definite concern which will be compounded by greater volume through the engine. The more air that enters the engine, the more that will be exiting. If what you currently have cannot escape the exhaust stream, allowing more air to enter will greatly exagerate the problem.

Even independant tests done by Jeff Garmon and others, showed huge gains in HP and torque in the lower rpm range, a similiar peak HP number and then huge gains in the higher rpms. I hope what I am about to say does not come off the wrong way but, if it is put together right, the engine has no choice but to work. If you want I would be more than happy to work with you to figure out what is wrong with your setup. If you do not want the help I will understand as some people are fairly secretive with setups. On a side note, my 05 with a 6.7l engine (known for higher drive)was at 52lbs of boost and drive was within a few lbs with a 66/480setup and made right at 900hp. I believe in that cam so much that I will be willing to personally fly to where you are to help you fix the setup, and if you feel it is not right for you, buy back the cam.


I will do whatever I can to help you, call anytime.
 
Hey thanks for posting...and the offer!......I'll admit was pretty shocked to see my results as well. The data is solid though, why there's no gravy to boot is another thing.

I was thinking about where I'm at on the charger. Say if I was to the extreme right of the map and crawling up with the PR some.

Now throw a cam that gets us some more flow (Drop some pressure ratio) but now were falling down the right side and flow has really not changed.....know what I mean? Where I'm at for HP suggests that 480 is slammed to the right along with the back pressure to boost it is running alone......

So that's one theory that popped into my head.....Some turbo experts on here might set me straight on that.....

I'll give you a call later in the week when I can get back at it, don't mind sharing on here either.




NOW A BONE to pick with this fellow......

This dyno data is GARBAGE.....

The runs are started at different rpm's giving a huge advantage to the 188/220. They are break boosted to different levels again pootching the data.

THEN again another huge advantage to the 188/220 70 degree air vs almost 100 to the contender.....

Simply look at the difference in the 188/220 only runs between how high he break boosted it before he let it sweep.

Before I had hours and hours into a dyno I would not have picked it up, now that I do it's so obvious it hurts my eyes.



rjp said:
Results

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Here are the 181/210 Hamilton cam results with the mods in my Sig. The first two pulls are Fourth gear pulls, the third pull is fifth and the fourth is sixth. It was very hard to light this 1.28 exhaust housing on this inertia dyno,it was very laggy and smoked the whole time. Never the less my main objective here was to test this cam to see if there was any gains to be had by changing over to the 188/220.

photobucket-2060-1320460714420.jpg



Here is the pulls with the 188/220, they were made in fourth gear to match the previous fourth gear pulls on the 181/210. I tried all kind of different approaches to getting this big turbo to light and this is what i ended up with. The top two are ridding the brake all the way threw in order to sustain enough load that it would keep pulling. The bottom two are with a little brake in the beginning and rolling into the throttle.

photobucket-1478-1320460621282.jpg



This last one is the best fourth gear pull on the 181/210 and the best 188/220 pull overlapped. As you can see its about a 110hp gain over the curve and just shy of 30 peak hp over all.


photobucket-2950-1320460671088.jpg




Thanks Zach, Cant say enough about how well you know your product. It was a pleasure on my end,especially after seeing the 110hp gain over the curve.
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JasonCzerak said:
I know someone that would call you a cheap ass for not dynoing for every release.
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Well you can never keep your mouth shut. I am anything but a cheap ass with more than 20k in my truck not including what the truck cost me new. My comment was for Joe as I am speaking directly to him. Really don't care what you have to say, keep it on the SSR thread in which I feel I have contributed to.


And yes, the SSR is a waste of time for me, I have spent over 1k in dyno time with the last 3 releases to gain 52 hp. Yes, smoke it down but not worth the 1700 I have spent between the programmer, fuel, MY TIME( the most important), and money. EFI wil cost me 800 and for the same dyno time I could get back the 20 mpg (old tnt-r tune) I was getting before and still making north of 700 at the wheels. Hell, for 600 I could put a nitrous kit and gain 200hp since I do have the fuel for it. Should have stayed with my S06.

To put it mildly, really don't care what is next for MADS; lack of support, asked and NOT answered questions has left a bad taste in my mouth as well as a few others.


Joe, cant run the new tnt-r tune on the SSR, need another unit (so6) which I am not gonna buy. I have the SSR somewhat dialed in and don't have the time to go back and dyno for a day.....too busy with school and work, its over 80 hrs a week of my life between the two.
 
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raychem said:
Well you can never keep your mouth shut. I am anything but a cheap ass with more than 20k in my truck not including what the truck cost me new. My comment was for Joe as I am speaking directly to him. Really don't care what you have to say, keep it on the SSR thread in which I feel I have contributed to.


And yes, the SSR is a waste of time for me, I have spent over 1k in dyno time with the last 3 releases to gain 52 hp. Yes, smoke it down but not worth the 1700 I have spent between the programmer, fuel, MY TIME( the most important), and money. EFI wil cost me 800 and for the same dyno time I could get back the 20 mpg (old tnt-r tune) I was getting before and still making north of 700 at the wheels. Hell, for 600 I could put a nitrous kit and gain 200hp since I do have the fuel for it. Should have stayed with my S06.

To put it mildly, really don't care what is next for MADS; lack of support, asked and NOT answered questions has left a bad taste in my mouth as well as a few others.


Joe, cant run the new tnt-r tune on the SSR, need another unit (so6) which I am not gonna buy. I have the SSR somewhat dialed in and don't have the time to go back and dyno for a day.....too busy with school and work, its over 80 hrs a week of my life between the two.
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I was NOT in any shape or form calling you a cheap-ass. Refer to a recent efilive thread.

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20k, is about average i bet for a 700-900+whp. Bumper to Bumper.That i definitely have.
 
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JasonCzerak said:
I was NOT in any shape or form calling you a cheap-ass. Refer to a recent efilive thread.

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20k, is about average i bet for a 700-900+whp. Bumper to Bumper.That i definitely have.
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Replied you your PM

There you have it. Most of us north of 700 on fuel have plenty invested in our trucks and many more here are north of 30k easily.
 
raychem said:
Replied you your PM

There you have it. Most of us north of 700 on fuel have plenty invested in our trucks and many more here are north of 30k easily.
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Exactly. I bet that number is even higher if you factor in all the incremental upgrades and changes over the years to get to this point.


cquestad said:
With breakage factored in....I could have two new trucks.
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This too. I've been fortunate and only broke an NV5600 real good once and got a deal on the second time it somewhat broke.
 
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LOL...with David's breakage factored in we could all have two trucks.....:poke: I quit adding it up a long time ago....:bang The upfront on a dyno sucks but the rate is great.....been strapped to it for a month...working on the fourth tank of fuel...:hehe:
 
Joesixpack said:
LOL...with David's breakage factored in we could all have two trucks.....:poke: I quit adding it up a long time ago....:bang The upfront on a dyno sucks but the rate is great.....been strapped to it for a month...working on the fourth tank of fuel...:hehe:
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Some people get to have all the fun.
 
I've had 30K in just wheels and tires over the years. LOL

Let's keep this on track though....too good of a thread to go to sh!t.
 
This is a great thread, thanks a million for all the effort and knowledge. I wish I knew just a fraction of what you did.

Can't beat cold hard data!
 
I'm planning on having a rather "similar" turbo setup. So this is perfect timing JSP! I've been tossing around the idea of a cam next winter with a re-fresh of the motor.. Pending your results with gate modification will save me lots of beer money!
 
Not to ask the retrdedly obvious question...but can you retune for the cam? Or did you and I missed it? LOL

Epically posted via Tapatalk...
 
I'm not a rocket surgeon, but I will take a stab at this:

You are out of primary turbo, and the cam isn't going to change that.

What I see is the drive pressure not really changing between the two cam's, but boost pressure obviously dropping as are the egt's.

As we know when air is compressed it heat's up, and becomes less dense. Looking at your runs the Primary turbo still hasn't added ANY more volume (Lbs/min or cfm) of air, the cam has just made the processing of that air more efficient.

As you eluded to it probably has just moved where in the map the primary was, and possibly put it at a higher % of efficiency, but it is still choked and cannot process anymore air.

SO my guess is that even if you pull the pucks right out of the secondary, and port it till they are HUGE, you will see little to no gain on the overall number.

This really is where the standalone shines, as it allows you to squeeze every last drop out of a set of turbo's, or on the other end, out of a set of injectors where you have more turbo then injector.


I would be really curious to see the outcome if you put the stock injectors back in and ran these tests again.
 
dvst8r said:
I'm not a rocket surgeon, but I will take a stab at this:

You are out of primary turbo, and the cam isn't going to change that.

What I see is the drive pressure not really changing between the two cam's, but boost pressure obviously dropping as are the egt's.

As we know when air is compressed it heat's up, and becomes less dense. Looking at your runs the Primary turbo still hasn't added ANY more volume (Lbs/min or cfm) of air, the cam has just made the processing of that air more efficient.

As you eluded to it probably has just moved where in the map the primary was, and possibly put it at a higher % of efficiency, but it is still choked and cannot process anymore air.

SO my guess is that even if you pull the pucks right out of the secondary, and port it till they are HUGE, you will see little to no gain on the overall number.

This really is where the standalone shines, as it allows you to squeeze every last drop out of a set of turbo's, or on the other end, out of a set of injectors where you have more turbo then injector.


I would be really curious to see the outcome if you put the stock injectors back in and ran these tests again.
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Hey glad to see you catch this one, I sent you a PM.

Do doubt that charger is capped, that last 50hp took a pile of work, most of a day and more pulls than I want to admit to.......

I'm still going to give a shot to getting some more flow out of that gate just for a look see.

The stand alone is sweet, working on some big air....should be able to really lay it down.
 
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