Pinion Depth

[1pieceatatime.]

Yeah i dont agree with the heavy truck rears breaking due to being cold but a good contact pattern is key i do not even use a pinion depth tool i start with the shims that were with the housing and adjust pinion depth from there based on the pattern. It is also important backlash is set to spec when checking your pattern the best BL is when the pattern looks the best in my opinion.

Thats all fine and well when going with the same brand of gears, BUT if replacing OEs with Any other brand, the pinion may not be exact. Having been taught to do exactly as you say, I burned myself a few times not checking pinion depths.


I also very much disagree with Supershafts opinion of USA standard gears, for most applications they are lapped just fine, set up nice and are quiet as can be. Unless its an application where the box comes through labeled, "gear set may be noisy", they will most likely be fine.

 

[Supershafts]

Supershafts, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but how about to prove your point(s), you or your company/business offer a sponsorship to one of the strongest pulling trucks in your area & see what results you can get??

If you're right, I hope you have ample help at work bc pullers will spend money with folks who offer even an incling of advantage over someone else therefore you'll be a busy busy fella.

If you're wrong, you'll carry on business as usual without being bothered by every puller around.

I believe we only have 2 trucks here, i wouldn't call them anywhere near strongest. I have another somewhere that we are going to do shafts for since he keeps breaking others.

That's an interesting thought. Once the housing has yielded in the initial failure, there is nothing impeding it for moving again. All of the cracks from the first stress riser still exist.

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk

If the break was the type that killed the carrier and caused it to split, which then would/could cause spreading of the housing beyond it's limits, a ring failure where the ring ran off the heel and pulled teeth isn't going to hurt the housing.
The same way you use a spreader to build the diff, you can also over spread it and hurt it also

Sorry dude, but if that were true, we would be seeing waaaaay more heavy truck rear end work than we do.

We don't have many trucks in the northeast that will shred ring and pinions. Its like the dark ages up here, so most folks who talk about ring and pinion setup on a diesel puller like they are going to change the market and figure something out no one else has are pretty much not in touch with what's really going on.

No actually you will see it. as i do in the winter, the large 30/40k plus rears put into a situation where they are being used wrong do break seemingly much easier cold, mostly with drivers thinking that bigger can take all the abuse in the world. However the truck that just pulled out of their yard gets into a issue with slipping up the hill from snow, keep their foot in the gas, diff hits and loses and bingo it's broke, whereas the same situation and the truck has been run a bit and it's warm it doesn't have the same issue.

"A D-80 is designed to see 30k lbs"

Case closed.

Yeah and because something is stated doesn't mean it can't.
When using something beyond it's parameters you should not set it up wrong thinking that it'll last longer

Thats all fine and well when going with the same brand of gears, BUT if replacing OEs with Any other brand, the pinion may not be exact. Having been taught to do exactly as you say, I burned myself a few times not checking pinion depths.


I also very much disagree with Supershafts opinion of USA standard gears, for most applications they are lapped just fine, set up nice and are quiet as can be. Unless its an application where the box comes through labeled, "gear set may be noisy", they will most likely be fine.

I can not count the times i have changed gears using the oe and even ordering that exact number and still the pattern wasn't perfect attempting to use the same depth.
In fact i am constantly having to make shims to get the patterns right as the shims now are far and few between what is needed but, thats another post....

As for usa standard.... for most things they are a ok gear missing a process and for the money other better gears can be used. For something that is going to be abusing and beyond normal use they aren't what you want. .They are a randys brand, the better gears coming closer to to being good are then branded yukon, the stuff that doesn't meet their way of standard are usa standard boxed... I haven't seen a set of those pos yet that have had lapping done to them.
In fact the set some kid brought in last week from yukon no less and not usa standard in 5.13 didn't have a hint of lapping either, and thats the better brand name... The lapping is what i look for, and when my pattern matches the lapping pattern from quality gear companies then i adjust for load and make the changes necessary.

Building a Dana i would always stay with Dana gears unless the ratio wasn't avail.
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[1pieceatatime.]

I believe we only have 2 trucks here, i wouldn't call them anywhere near strongest. I have another somewhere that we are going to do shafts for since he keeps breaking others.




If the break was the type that killed the carrier and caused it to split, which then would/could cause spreading of the housing beyond it's limits, a ring failure where the ring ran off the heel and pulled teeth isn't going to hurt the housing.
The same way you use a spreader to build the diff, you can also over spread it and hurt it also



No actually you will see it. as i do in the winter, the large 30/40k plus rears put into a situation where they are being used wrong do break seemingly much easier cold, mostly with drivers thinking that bigger can take all the abuse in the world. However the truck that just pulled out of their yard gets into a issue with slipping up the hill from snow, keep their foot in the gas, diff hits and loses and bingo it's broke, whereas the same situation and the truck has been run a bit and it's warm it doesn't have the same issue.




Yeah and because something is stated doesn't mean it can't.
When using something beyond it's parameters you should not set it up wrong thinking that it'll last longer




I can not count the times i have changed gears using the oe and even ordering that exact number and still the pattern wasn't perfect attempting to use the same depth.
In fact i am constantly having to make shims to get the patterns right as the shims now are far and few between what is needed but, thats another post....

As for usa standard.... for most things they are a ok gear missing a process and for the money other better gears can be used. For something that is going to be abusing and beyond normal use they aren't what you want. .They are a randys brand, the better gears coming closer to to being good are then branded yukon, the stuff that doesn't meet their way of standard are usa standard boxed... I haven't seen a set of those pos yet that have had lapping done to them.
In fact the set some kid brought in last week from yukon no less and not usa standard in 5.13 didn't have a hint of lapping either, and thats the better brand name... The lapping is what i look for, and when my pattern matches the lapping pattern from quality gear companies then i adjust for load and make the changes necessary.

Building a Dana i would always stay with Dana gears unless the ratio wasn't avail.
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Point blank. You have more $h!t than a Christmas goose.

 

[GOT-Torque]

Building a Dana i would always stay with Dana gears unless the ratio wasn't avail.
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So you would continue to use gear sets that cost 3 times as much and don't last any longer? Seems like good advice oke:

I think I'm going to try lapping my dollar bills together and see if they last any longer. :Cheer:

 

[takedown95]

What are you expecting to find checking pin preload after each run ?

When you leave what gear are you in ? and range at the case ? when get to the end what gear are you in ?

This is truck pulling. I leave in a direct driver gear with the t case in low just like pretty much every other 2.6 truck. At the end I am in the same gear. I don't know of many people that can shift a manual succesfully during a pull.

Checking the preload will let you know how much, if any your pinion is looser than when you set up the gears. As I mentioned in past posts the oil fligners can bend around the gears losening the pinion.

 

[Supershafts]

Point blank. You have more $h!t than a Christmas goose.

If thats what you want to believe thats fine, i can see no one is listening here, not anyone who says they know how to build diffs has STILL yet to catch whats missing with the OP.
That speaks volumes.

This is truck pulling. I leave in a direct driver gear with the t case in low just like pretty much every other 2.6 truck. At the end I am in the same gear. I don't know of many people that can shift a manual succesfully during a pull.

Checking the preload will let you know how much, if any your pinion is looser than when you set up the gears. As I mentioned in past posts the oil fligners can bend around the gears losening the pinion.

and you'll find that preload will always loosen, it'll even loosen by as much as half, and more, and thats normal. All preloads loosen it's knowing where it should be so nothing moves beyond the acceptable parameters is whats important.
I have never seen a slinger bend though, and i have seen all kinds of catastrophic breaks, even pinions sent out of the housing and still there were no squished shims, imagine the pinion leaving a dana 80 thru the front. . . .see a race fail or didn't have enough pres fit to begin with and then spin and wear out the slinger, or overheat and spin but no bending.
That's why it is so important to have the right tools, not having them means you have no idea where you're at or if something is on the light side.
Not sure why you would want a slinger though
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[whitneyj]

I've been pouring over this thread the entire time picking up what I can and I have to say that I have no idea what the OP has/is missing setting up his gears... He's set the pinion depth, I'm assuming the pinion preload, and setting a backlash (I'm not going to get into the argument of what backlash is required for what purpose, I have my own thoughts but they're not based on anything more than my experience with crawlers, daily drivers, and heavy equipment), I'm assuming he's running a pattern to verify the contact pattern, and I believe I read somewhere that there's carrier bearing preload happening as well. Short of things like soaking bearings in gear oil, using the correct thread locker, and other common sense differential practices I'm lost. I'd hate for this thread to die before good info gets tossed out there. The whole pissing match between pullers and recommended/proper/whateverterminologyfitsyouropinion gear setup is clouding this up.

 

[J-Pipes]

If thats what you want to believe thats fine, i can see no one is listening here, not anyone who says they know how to build diffs has STILL yet to catch whats missing with the OP.
That speaks volumes.



and you'll find that preload will always loosen, it'll even loosen by as much as half, and more, and thats normal. All preloads loosen it's knowing where it should be so nothing moves beyond the acceptable parameters is whats important.
I have never seen a slinger bend though, and i have seen all kinds of catastrophic breaks, even pinions sent out of the housing and still there were no squished shims, imagine the pinion leaving a dana 80 thru the front. . . .see a race fail or didn't have enough pres fit to begin with and then spin and wear out the slinger, or overheat and spin but no bending.
That's why it is so important to have the right tools, not having them means you have no idea where you're at or if something is on the light side.
Not sure why you would want a slinger though
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Why not just be straight forward and tell everyone what's missing? Obviously nobody knows, so just tell them already.

 

[GOT-Torque]

Now don't take this as im attacking you but....this is the problem with building diffs.. and i see professional shops make the same mistakes also...
This is also the biggest reason for failures....

Im going to point out what he said he did and lets see if anyone who claims to know how to build diffs can add whats missing... Again im not doing this to goof on anyone.

He set the pin depth with a .057 shim (which is the 1st step to get correct)
He gave it a tighter rolling torque (im assuming this is pinion preload)
He then set BL to .001 and added another .010 to each side (steps are skipped)

What hasn't been set properly ? What also needs to be done to prevent failure?

What happens to a pulling trucks diff as it nears the end of a run , that happens to a drag cars diff at the beginning of a run... and weight doesn't mean anything.

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I'm rereading this thread and noticed your question, I assume you are trying to point out that he didn't mention checking/adjusting for the correct pattern on the gear.

You need to really understand whats happening, it's far more than depth and backlash. There are preloads that counter deflection and tooth pattern run off which is present in every diff.

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I'll agree that deflection is bad and can cause tooth pattern run off, but I'm surprised you have not mentioned what can be done to limit ring gear deflection? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere in this entire thread...

 

[whitneyj]

I'm pretty sure pattern was discussed, not necessarily at length, but how the pattern should be run for whichever application.

What CAN be done for ring gear deflection short of running a thick gearset? (assuming the gears are above a 4.10)

 

[jasonc]

I'm pretty sure pattern was discussed, not necessarily at length, but how the pattern should be run for whichever application.

What CAN be done for ring gear deflection short of running a thick gearset? (assuming the gears are above a 4.10)

Not sure on dana 80's but on drag race rear ends I've had there was a snubber that you adjusted up against the ring gear on the other side of the pinion to keep it from flexing.

 

[DISTURBED]

We ad a ring gear snubber to some of the smaller Rockwell's to stop deflection and it works. You can do it to the D80 but its not as easy in my opinion.

 

[GOT-Torque]

Yep, I added a snubber to both my D80 and D60.

Jantz Engineering makes a nice one.

 

[whitneyj]

Ahhh that's right, forgot about those. Does everyone use brass or G3 hardware?

 

[DISTURBED]

The tips of the ones ive had put in are brass

 

[SledPuller21]

If thats what you want to believe thats fine, i can see no one is listening here, not anyone who says they know how to build diffs has STILL yet to catch whats missing with the OP.
That speaks volumes.



and you'll find that preload will always loosen, it'll even loosen by as much as half, and more, and thats normal. All preloads loosen it's knowing where it should be so nothing moves beyond the acceptable parameters is whats important.
I have never seen a slinger bend though, and i have seen all kinds of catastrophic breaks, even pinions sent out of the housing and still there were no squished shims, imagine the pinion leaving a dana 80 thru the front. . . .see a race fail or didn't have enough pres fit to begin with and then spin and wear out the slinger, or overheat and spin but no bending.
That's why it is so important to have the right tools, not having them means you have no idea where you're at or if something is on the light side.
Not sure why you would want a slinger though
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I have a pile of squished/deformed pinion shims, I can happen. Hence why we don't shim behind the bearings anymore. Hell, I crushed the crush sleeve on my AAM this year too(I now use a solid spacer) and supposedly that was impossible. And yes preload does loosen...if you use new bearings. As I'm sure you are aware new and used preload setup is vastly different.

 

[Supershafts]

I have a pile of squished/deformed pinion shims, I can happen. Hence why we don't shim behind the bearings anymore. Hell, I crushed the crush sleeve on my AAM this year too(I now use a solid spacer) and supposedly that was impossible. And yes preload does loosen...if you use new bearings. As I'm sure you are aware new and used preload setup is vastly different.

You do realize what you said is impossible. You can not increase preload..crush the sleeve more in use. It is impossible, when you think about it more and figure out what you had a problem with to cause your problem you'll see the crush sleeve isn't the issue.
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All that does is set drag for the bearings to seat and get to the correct load.
So how can you crush it more.... unless the motor and trans was hit from the front and shoved the shaft into pinion you can't increase the load.
You most definitely had another failure and it was missed and the sleeve was blamed.
The only purpose the sleeve provides are 2, set the load at the bearings and the pull/torque to lock the nut.
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If you use new or used bearings preload always loosens, again preload is a measured parameter that will loosen, GETTING that wrong is what causes 90% or ring and pinion and bearing failures.

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[SledPuller21]

Incorrect. 90% of failures are from exceeding the factory ring and pinions designed use. Yes they do loosen but used bearings loose very little preload in comparison. I'm talking over the short life of a pull trucks ring and pinion, not a street vehicle. But even over 200k miles ive yet to see extreme preload loss.

 

[SledPuller21]

You do realize what you said is impossible. You can not increase preload..crush the sleeve more in use. It is impossible, when you think about it more and figure out what you had a problem with to cause your problem you'll see the crush sleeve isn't the issue.
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All that does is set drag for the bearings to seat and get to the correct load.
So how can you crush it more.... unless the motor and trans was hit from the front and shoved the shaft into pinion you can't increase the load.
You most definitely had another failure and it was missed and the sleeve was blamed.


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How about a rear driveshaft snapping in half right at full load at the end of the track? Still impossible?

 

[Supershafts]

Incorrect. 90% of failures are from exceeding the factory ring and pinions designed use. Yes they do loosen but used bearings loose very little preload in comparison. I'm talking over the short life of a pull trucks ring and pinion, not a street vehicle. But even over 200k miles ive yet to see extreme preload loss.

Preload starts diminishing fairly quick, at 200k depending on what was happening you may be down to 2" lbs, i have witnessed all loss of preload to .5" of preload from as little as 900 miles to 700,000 miles.
Preload starts going away a 1000 feet at a time, when its set wrong it's gone completely or you kill bearings very quickly.
Then you have people setting preloads that think putting it in and spinning it 2 times is set.. and therein lies the mistakes of why preload is never where it should be and most causes of gear failures. Along with using oils at set up and exaggerating whats really there

Incorrect. 90% of failures are from exceeding the factory ring and pinions designed use.

I have at this time hundreds of people exceeding the limits just this weekend alone. I'll have not 1 message of failure on the answering machine.

How about a rear driveshaft snapping in half right at full load at the end of the track? Still impossible?

Depends how it was built. I can build a shaft that will destroy everything in front of it and behind it, wouldn't care if you bounced the truck like a basketball at the end of the pull and bounced it higher than a championship winning hydraulic lowrider, wouldn't even spend .000000001 of a second giving it a thought.

I am saying as i did the first time, the only way to crush a crush collar more after it has been set, is to crash the pinion while it's underload. So you would have to crash the end yoke/flange yoke or drive the shaft into the housing while underload.
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