14mm ve pump

JQmile said:
Big is all relative. I think Stomp ran his for a while with some 5x16s. I was reffering to when people tried running em with POD's LOL
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yeah, i probably could have narrowed down BIG a bit. Brian himself says "6x16 or bigger" is a good rule to go by.

not saying smaller nozzles would not run better, or maybe make more clean power, but if I wanted a daily driver 14mm pump I would do all i could to keep it alive...

the thread was partly asking about reliability after all...
 
ahale2772 said:
but if I wanted a daily driver 14mm pump I would do all i could to keep it alive...

the thread was partly asking about reliability after all...
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RPM is what kills them.

ahale2772 said:
whats the difference between "had them built" and sourced... splitting hairs no?
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I built a Corvette. I bought a Corvette and put my name on the license plate. Is that splitting hairs?
 
I built a Corvette. I bought a Corvette and put my name on the license plate. Is that splitting hairs?
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No one said he built them himself. Jason said that he "had them built" which is a synonym for sourced.

I'm not trying to raise a stink here, but it sounded like you were accusing him of just labeling other peoples parts. He had the OG 14mm head :stab:
 
I'm not trying to take any of Brian's credit away, but it is all but common to find a pre existing part and market it in the diesel world. The problem becomes when the internet crowd starts to believe that the person in question designed, patented, and manufactured the part.
 
Smokem said:
I talked to a VE guy from California, said Lenny kept making the holes bigger and the power kept going down.
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You mean actual data may not agree with the laws of the internet forums? No way.
ahale2772 said:
yeah, i probably could have narrowed down BIG a bit. Brian himself says "6x16 or bigger" is a good rule to go by.

not saying smaller nozzles would not run better, or maybe make more clean power, but if I wanted a daily driver 14mm pump I would do all i could to keep it alive...

the thread was partly asking about reliability after all...
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How does anyone really know this though? Brian said its a good rule to go by, not that it is an absolute.
No one knows anything, its just a constant regurgitation of hearsay for the most part. Common sense would lead a person to believe that an injector that flows upwards of 5lpm is not necessary for an injection pump that moves a sub 400cc of fuel, would it not? A ~3lpm injector may work quite well after all, but instead of actually looking into it or trying it first hand everyone just says " oh big injectors, yup ,need em. Crazy fuel system, no streetability, 14mm is just insane..." And yet there are people driving a mild 12mm inline pump with more cc output on a smaller set of injectors. Doesnt make sense, unless there is some huge design function in the VE that i am completely missing that warrants overly large injectors increased output.
 
My understanding is that a p pump can force fuel through smaller injectors and make power but a ve or VP doesn't have the flow to do that. Bigger injectors with lower pop pressures can maximize the minimal flow that we have.

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chevota84 said:
My understanding is that a p pump can force fuel through smaller injectors and make power but a ve or VP doesn't have the flow to do that. Bigger injectors with lower pop pressures can maximize the minimal flow that we have.

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I understand this concept, but is a 6x.016 really necessary? Why wouldnt a ~3lpm injector work? If it makes good power on a 12mm pump, why wouldnt we see an increase with a 14mm?
 
shiftycapone said:
You mean actual data may not agree with the laws of the internet forums? No way.


How does anyone really know this though? Brian said its a good rule to go by, not that it is an absolute.
No one knows anything, its just a constant regurgitation of hearsay for the most part. Common sense would lead a person to believe that an injector that flows upwards of 5lpm is not necessary for an injection pump that moves a sub 400cc of fuel, would it not? A ~3lpm injector may work quite well after all, but instead of actually looking into it or trying it first hand everyone just says " oh big injectors, yup ,need em. Crazy fuel system, no streetability, 14mm is just insane..." And yet there are people driving a mild 12mm inline pump with more cc output on a smaller set of injectors. Doesnt make sense, unless there is some huge design function in the VE that i am completely missing that warrants overly large injectors increased output.
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KTA has done lots of testing on his bench... thats how we know...

Jason allready posted 2 flow ratings of the same pump with 6x18's and pods. If the 14mm pump flowed almost as good as the 6x18's then we would all be running 14mm heads with small injectors

look around on 1stgen.org, there is TONS of info on 14mm heads living, and dying. this is not spectulation, contrary to popular belief people are interested in the VE, if you want to run a small fuel system and small injectors go ahead, you speculating just like the rest of us that it may or may not work.... but it will be your $$$ when it fails, and it has failed many times....

kinda like asking if sniffing brake Kleen 24/7 is going to kill you, there probably isnt any one outh there that has done a study on it, but its probably not a good Idea to do it.

FACT: VE's with 14mm heads will die at HIGH rpm. there are two main causes of this.... either the plunger seizes from high injection pressure due to small nozzels, or its running out of fuel.

that is not a guess, that has been documented many times. its simple logic Jason's truck is probably reliable because of the fact that he has massive injectors, and a good fuel supply. Ask him to throw 370's on it and revert to a piston lift pump, i bet you he will tell you to pound sand.
 
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ahale2772 said:
FACT: VE's with 14mm heads will die at HIGH rpm. there are two main causes of this.... either the plunger seizes from high injection pressure due to small nozzels, or its running out of fuel.
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We broke a plunger in a KTA 14mm VE, had "large" injectors and plenty off fuel supply. Can you tell me how having a larger injector effects the pressure the pump will produce?
 
ve does all its work with one piston riding on the camplate. a p pump does it with 6 pistons and barrels riding on a roller cam.. a vp is basically the same as a ve with electonics and a 13mm piston..
if you understand the basics of what i said than you will also understand the reason that a p pump can put out alot more volume with pressure ie power and rpm than either of the other two type of pumps.. and you can also understand why if you have big injecto nozzles at the ends that dont attomise well you can still make alot of power with nitrous..
three examples off the top of my head
ron a = 1218hp on fuel only, 13mm pump
jason s = 460hp or so on fuel with 5x.025 injectors + n2o= 972hp
adam w = 739hp or so on fuel with around 6x.020 injectors + n2o= 1060hp
all street driven trucks
 
ahale2772 said:
KTA has done lots of testing on his bench... thats how we know...

Jason allready posted 2 flow ratings of the same pump with 6x18's and pods. If the 14mm pump flowed almost as good as the 6x18's then we would all be running 14mm heads with small injectors

look around on 1stgen.org, there is TONS of info on 14mm heads living, and dying. this is not spectulation, contrary to popular belief people are interested in the VE, if you want to run a small fuel system and small injectors go ahead, you speculating just like the rest of us that it may or may not work.... but it will be your $$$ when it fails, and it has failed many times....

kinda like asking if sniffing brake Kleen 24/7 is going to kill you, there probably isnt any one outh there that has done a study on it, but its probably not a good Idea to do it.

FACT: VE's with 14mm heads will die at HIGH rpm. there are two main causes of this.... either the plunger seizes from high injection pressure due to small nozzels, or its running out of fuel.

that is not a guess, that has been documented many times. its simple logic Jason's truck is probably reliable because of the fact that he has massive injectors, and a good fuel supply. Ask him to throw 370's on it and revert to a piston lift pump, i bet you he will tell you to pound sand.
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Coule the high RPM issue possibly be associated with the internal vane pump and case pressure? Hmm...
A 5x.016 is not a 370 by any means, and where did I mention a piston pump? Is anything under a 6x.018 what you would consider a "small" injector? Or is a big cheap 6 hole the only thing that works? A good fuel pump is not a huge issue. And fwiw, Ron Allen did the 1218hp on a piston pump, crazy I know.

Smokem said:
We broke a plunger in a KTA 14mm VE, had "large" injectors and plenty off fuel supply. Can you tell me how having a larger injector effects the pressure the pump will produce?
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^This.
 
"large" or "big" is something we are going to have to define here at some point.

Can you tell me how having a larger injector effects the pressure the pump will produce?
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For example.... my case pressure guage reads 90-150psi on a normal basis, thats reading pressure through the shut off solinoid port, right before the plunger fuel supply port. Brian said that with his 6x18's, he could drag his case pressure down below 70psi at WOT. thats where his dual feed (secondary pump) was providing aux. fuel through the return line port. if case pressure was not dipping down because of his "large" injectors... why would he have even botherd with a dual feed system.

if you think limiting the fuel psi to the plunger... which will inturn effect both Volume and pressure created by the plunger... will not effect the final pressure in the injector line than I guess im missing something huge...
 
I know that, but is there not a relation between case pressure and injection pressure?

if Brian was to not augment his case pressure with an Aux. pump, his injection pressures would continue to drop, would they not?
 
Ron Allen made 1200hp+ without his aux system, do you think his case pressure was dropping? In a pumping system the pressure would stay relatively the same, however the quantity would be reduced.
 
Flow considerations aside, case pressure is important to the VE to keep the dynamic timing working correctly.
 
he didnt make 1200hp+ on a ve....

I dont get why we would compare p-pumps to VE's... yes they both have plungers, but thats about where the similaritys stop.

this isnt mystery stuff... its fluid dynamics.
 
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