7x.010 vs 5x.014

Algae Eater

Algae Eater

Greaser
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
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I have a set of brand new SDX 5x14's (w/ .015 stroke) that I've been holding onto for the past couple months.. now that I've taken care of some other things, I'm about ready to install them.

The thing is, now I'm hearing a lot of good things about how 7x10's may provide more tunability (less smoke on the low-end) due to better spoolability.

I just had Mr Goerend send me a new 15-blade TC (have a 15-blade LEFT-CUT in there now) to raise the stall speed a notch.. thinking that would help me spool easier without the off-the-line smoke I've been experiencing.

So I'm wondering, will the low-end smoke be more noticeably "tame" with a set of 7x10's versus these 5x14's? Or should I stick with what I bought and hope the looser TC takes care of it?

I've spent some serious time dialing in my pre-boost for good spool.. the only thing is, when running on veggie oil versus diesel (I only run #2 during warm-up and short in-town errands) really makes a huge difference with regard to ideal pre-boost setting. It can smoke off the line pretty good on #2 since I've tuned the pre-boost for WVO. As most of you know, the tune differs with fuel, (#2 vs WVO) fuel temps and ambient temps. I could tune it for diesel (w/ engine warmed up) but then it smokes off-idle when cold and worse on WVO.

I tuned it to run best on WVO at 140ºF, because most of the time I run on WVO and 135-145ºF is the normal WVO temp after warm-up.. but even when tuned, the pre-boost is very finnicky and off-idle smoke is hard to avoid... (partly due to tight convertor?)

I'm not wanting to hook-up this flex-shaft to my pre-boost screw (for remote pre-boost adjustability in cab) unless I really need to.
I'd love to find a tune that works and just leave it.

Any input? THANKS! :D
 
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Wanted to add that the reason I'm wanting to step my injectors up a level (from 5x12's to 5x14's or 7x10's) is that I've come to understand that it's pretty difficult to reach the low 500HP range (515-525HP) on 5x12's.

I realize I'm going to be slightly over-fueling this non-wastegated turbo.. since I'm already running 60PSI+ boost (gauge only goes to 60).. but Chris from E.D said he wouldn't be surprised if the boost went *down* a hair with the bigger injectors. Seems counter-intuitive, but I'm gonna take his word for it and see.

I put my truck on the dyno a few months back and although there were many reasons for a low number, it only made 414HP (1089TQ on WVO & 1083TQ on #2).. and I wonder if the 5x12's aren't holding me back.
 
Apples to Oranges. the 5x14's will make more power, they will have to, they flow more. The flow would be closer when using 7x12, with the 7x12 flowing a hair more. But I still think more power is obtainable from the 5 holers. I don't think the smoke will be all that bad, you seem very knowledgble in the tuning dept.
 
how does it feel on the street? 414 does seem a little low, I would have expected that set up to pull closer to 450 easy. the 5x12s should be good up to that high esspecially with the right DV's. But i would stick the 5x14s you bought already in there and see how you like it, I mean for just a couple hours worth of work you can at least see how they do. Cant hurt nothin to try it. BTW what do you have holdin your headgasket together at 60+ psi unwaste gated?
 
Your running a 62 turbo at 60+psi? That's counter intuitive. There is no way that thing is efficient at that level.
 
I personally would try the injectors you have on-hand and if you don't end up liking them, try something else.

Your current 17* of timing is limiting your HP somewhat as well.
 
Delinquent said:
Apples to Oranges. the 5x14's will make more power, they will have to, they flow more. The flow would be closer when using 7x12, with the 7x12 flowing a hair more. But I still think more power is obtainable from the 5 holers. I don't think the smoke will be all that bad, you seem very knowledgble in the tuning dept.
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That is not necessarily true. A 7 hole sac injector makes crazy lowend power and also midrange power. They are also very clean running injectors. Not knocking a 5 hole, they are great, but that statement isn't exactly true. Depends what the truck is being used for.:Cheer:
 
jaybuller said:
how does it feel on the street?
Click to expand...

It feels awesome.. like it has at least 500HP (from what I've felt in the past)..

The 35" tires, unexperienced dyno operator, fuel plate "profile", lack of engine coolant (had a leak and wasn't aware - not a power reducer I know) etc.. etc.. all contributed the low number. The guy didn't have the dyno loaded enough, so it wasn't hitting full boost until way after 2000RPM (around 2500)... I told him to brake load it or load the dyno more, but he was a diesel newb (w/ a Mustang MD750?) so all those things considered... it was a low number. I'm usually at 55PSI by 2000RPM. I hit 10PSI by 1350RPM.

And now I'm back down to 305/70/16's (ø32.8" vs the 315's ø34.6") and it accelerates way faster due to either rotating weight, and/or gearing advantage.

jaybuller said:
BTW what do you have holdin your headgasket together at 60+ psi unwaste gated?
Click to expand...

Faith LOL and the knowledge that Brett (LCD/Winspeed) has run a 66 w/ nitrous on untorque'd factory headbolts (before he studded).
I plan on at least re-torquing the headbolts (next week when I install the HD intake springs) but maybe studs.. maybe even O-rings. I have a head w/ O-rings by JL Sr. that I can use (from a buddy's truck).

BgBlDodge said:
Your running a 62 turbo at 60+psi? That's counter intuitive. There is no way that thing is efficient at that level.
Click to expand...

I don't run it at 60PSI unless I floor it - not often.
FYI: the most power ever made with a 62/68 (565HP) - that I know of - was on a 24v and it was pushing 64PSI boost. Sure it wasn't efficient, but it was E.D doing it and their turbo (which I have). 55PSI should be the max and hopefully I'll be able to use the bigger holes and a fuel plate (if needed) to make more power at 55PSI than I am now at 60PSI.

Big Blue24 said:
Your current 17* of timing is limiting your HP somewhat as well.
Click to expand...

I just wonder how much though.. 10-20HP?? Or 40-50? (not asking, just wondering).

cummins724 said:
That is not necessarily true. A 7 hole sac injector makes crazy lowend power and also midrange power. They are also very clean running injectors. Not knocking a 5 hole, they are great, but that statement isn't exactly true. Depends what the truck is being used for.:Cheer:
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I'm thinking. And that's why I'm holding off. I could sell these 5x14's NEW for what I paid, instead of installing them, rather than having to go pull 'em back out for 7x10's.

Also, my WVO setup (some of which is mounted to the top of the engine) has to come off every time I do injectors, DV's, valvesprings etc...

Here's what I mean:

2010-05-02153412.jpg
 
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BlackSkyRacing (username on CF) has been testing the 7x10's alongside 5x14's on the dyno (w/ his HE351VGT setup) and his dyno sheets show the HP is the same between the two sets of injectors. Torque is down with the 7x10's.. but it was about 30-50FtLbs less, which could be anomalous (not a statistical difference).

So I dunno what to think. It seems to be a wash between the two. He has said the 7-holes smoke less and are more tunable. So that's what's making me think about it.

I think I'm going to try and order up some 7x10's and do some experimentation between the two for myself. But I'm still really open to suggestions. ;)
 
The only actual dyno time done was on a vgt turbo that was acting up on the dyno. I believe the 7x10 sac will out perform a 5x14 vco once we get some more more legitimate testing done. Will they out perform a 5x14 sac? No.

There are also a couple different forms of the 7 hole nozzles that need to be tested that I believe will turn out decent. But only time will tell.
 
Thanks Lee! Glad to see you chime in.
Obviously these 5x14's are VCO not sac... I got 'em right before SDX made the sac available.
I'd be happy to help do some dyno comparison's (between the 7's and 5's) since my setup will likely be slightly different than whatever you'll be testing with. I'm sure it'd help to have more samples to compare.
 
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Decent nozzle except for the 158° cone angle, seems like most just overlook that fact.
 
So the 7x10 denso is a 158º cone angle? Is that also the spray angle?
Hmmm.. that changes things a bit.
I'm thinking if I did end up using them, I'd leave my timing at 17º*at the most.. I'd like to actually get some use out of my piston bowls.

Another consideration is how spray angle & timing setting would effect the results. That's where I can see the two being apples to oranges.

And on edit... looks like BlackSkyRacing has the same user name on here and it wasn't a 351VGT, he's got the smaller of the two HE451's (60mm comp wheel).. my mistake. That needed correction.
 
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There is another Denso nozzle that is 7x0.009" 148° cone anlge in stock form. Seems to me that this was just overlooked, I'm attempting to clear up any confusion.
 
I'm still very interested in those 043 hollow DV's.. it'd be fun to see how they'd work with 5x14 VCO's. Since I'm sure the 5x14's and 024's is gonna be a bit "big" on fuel for my lil' turbo. And I don't care what anybody says. I don't like 181's.. they're way too mild. Maybe because I only had 5x12's, but still. The difference between them and 024's (and the 191's I tried) was phenomenal - in a good way. To the tune of 20PSI more boost below 2500RPM. And about 15PSI difference above that.
Another thing is that the 181's had as much low-end smoke (and as high of EGT's) as these 7mm Bosch 024's.

Think I'll at least try the 5x14's to see how they do. Just don't want to blow my turbo up.
 
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Subscribing. Can't wait to try out Lees injectors soon!
 
I have a set of 7x.012's from lee and with 22.5* my truck has no haze when its warmed up. but until its warmed up, it has a slight haze and i would suspect that's from the rings in the #4,5,6 cylinders, being a little worn out, with 250k. can't say much on power, because I went from stock injectors, but there was a solid increase in power, and increase in smoke, but again I had stock injectors, still have an untouched afc. so before I had no smoke with just 024
 
Smokem said:
There is another Denso nozzle that is 7x0.009" 148° cone anlge in stock form. Seems to me that this was just overlooked, I'm attempting to clear up any confusion.
Click to expand...

Kevin has found that nozzle for me. The only thing the 158° nozzle will be used for is the non-intercooled piston.
 
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