Anything new with the p-pump conversion injectors?

So basicly it all boils down to custom nozzles. And I find this out right after i get done modding a second set of bodies so i have them.
 
I gave up on trying to prove the point some time ago after I dealt with Gardner Spring early this year. In no way can using the stepped nozzle holder with the 12v compression spring be a downfall, but it doesn't merit the time or effort in my opinion.
 
RonA said:
So basicly it all boils down to custom nozzles. And I find this out right after i get done modding a second set of bodies so i have them.
Click to expand...



Send them to me ol buddy, ol pal lol.
I hate that you wasted the time. Should have just called weston. He's the only honest one on the boards.
 
Smokem said:
I sent the springs to a manufacturer long ago, and the consensus was there was no real point. It seems to me that the setup ie; line size, P7100 model, and delivery valves have a much greater effect on the injector setup than the simple fact of it being a P-pump converted 24v.
Click to expand...
V.



Well keep that in mind next week weston, when you cut my dv's.

Also what size lines should I go with in your opinion? Also what bar to set my injectors?

Thanks
Brian
 
All I know is my 7x.012 at 255 bar are clean and crisp and every bit as easy to drive around town and the hill country as they were at 300+ bar.
 
Mach injectors are not set to an opening pressure!!!!!!!! I have stated this several times on several forums and told all the companies who sell my injectors. Out of thousands of sets, we have built them all to function based on injected quantity, not opening pressure.

We run each injector on a test bench and measure the quantity of fuel injected along with the opening pressure. Since all the compression spring forces, nozzle pintle friction, and nozzle hole size is slightly different one cant get optimal results by setting a pop pressure alone when your working with big injectors.

No other company does this. This is why we have never charged for routine cleaning, inspection, and adjustments. All springs lose some force over time, but the spring's pressure bell curve is carefully observed when we pick and choose which spring goes with which injector and what pressure it is set for. This allows some leeway in compressive force loss over time. This can sometimes take an entire day to accomplish. My VP44 injector builder has been very frustrated at times.

Pop pressure or opening pressure is not the end all parameter many think. With a slug of fuel traveling at the speed of sound down the injection line at a pressure of over 1100 bar, opening pressure is really moot unless we are talking a large spread or a value low enough to allow re-opening of the nozzle after injection stops.

The idea is to inject, as close as possible, the same volume in the same unit of time in all cylinders. The VP44 is accurate in its ability to do this. If the injectors match this ability.......all is well. The P7100 is not as accurate, but can be pretty close with a newer pump and careful assembly and tuning.

I am not glad to read the BS, but that is life and I understand that BS repeated enough can become fact in some cases.
 
Don, the simple fact here is that if your nozzles were balanced before installed, there would be no need to measure "injected quantity". This process you are harping about would not be needed, but if this is the method you use due to having raw EDM nozzles, then so be it. Yet you mention nowhere in your post about the 12v and 24v compression springs having nearly identical rates, and why you have protested so strongly. I have data to back up what I say, flow rates of your nozzles as well as others. Myths will be busted, with actual real world results, I haven't even begun.
 
My new injectors, which are going to be the shiznay, and will be here within a month are from..........
















Weston. sorry don:hehe:
 
Even when faced with injected quantity data people will yak it up. I cant see an end to the back and forth.

I have posted the quantity amounts from a converted injector and a stock VP44 injector. 130 plus milliliters from a conversion and in the 90 range from a stock VP44 injector using indenticle opening pressures and the same nozzle. Trucks with unconverted injectors run like poop, in most cases......Yet, I read the springs make no difference. LOL

Of course the arguments head out on tangents... as always and make things a mess that hardly anyone can decipher without getting a headache.
 
Your comments are noted Don, we'll just see what happens in the near future.
 
Soup Nazi said:
Mach injectors are not set to an opening pressure!!!!!!!! I have stated this several times on several forums and told all the companies who sell my injectors. Out of thousands of sets, we have built them all to function based on injected quantity, not opening pressure.

We run each injector on a test bench and measure the quantity of fuel injected along with the opening pressure. Since all the compression spring forces, nozzle pintle friction, and nozzle hole size is slightly different one cant get optimal results by setting a pop pressure alone when your working with big injectors.

No other company does this. This is why we have never charged for routine cleaning, inspection, and adjustments. All springs lose some force over time, but the spring's pressure bell curve is carefully observed when we pick and choose which spring goes with which injector and what pressure it is set for. This allows some leeway in compressive force loss over time. This can sometimes take an entire day to accomplish. My VP44 injector builder has been very frustrated at times.

Pop pressure or opening pressure is not the end all parameter many think. With a slug of fuel traveling at the speed of sound down the injection line at a pressure of over 1100 bar, opening pressure is really moot unless we are talking a large spread or a value low enough to allow re-opening of the nozzle after injection stops.

The idea is to inject, as close as possible, the same volume in the same unit of time in all cylinders. The VP44 is accurate in its ability to do this. If the injectors match this ability.......all is well. The P7100 is not as accurate, but can be pretty close with a newer pump and careful assembly and tuning.

I am not glad to read the BS, but that is life and I understand that BS repeated enough can become fact in some cases.
Click to expand...

Don, are you eluding to Weston's statement's being BS. Clarification as to what "You" consider BS, would be nice. Wait...... I'm holding.......... My Breath. Oh, almost forgot you are a very,very busy man. One of your dealers will have to be contacted for the answer! :hehe:

Throw it up I can decipher!
 
Smokem said:
12v compression spring uninstalled height 1.090" installed height 1.030" is 300BAR

24v compression spring uninstalled height 1.202" installed height 1.162" is 300BAR

12v spring creates 37lbs when compressed 0.040" and 53lbs when compressed 0.060"

24v spring creates 32lbs when compressed 0.040" and 54lbs when compressed 0.060"
Click to expand...

I'm a little confused by this.

the 24v spring at 300 bar is compressed .040 according to your numbers. (1.202-1.162=.040) is 32lbs increasing the compression .020 would bring pop off pressure up to around 400 bar, so that seems like a pointless number to even consider.

the 12v spring at 300 bar is compressed .060, again according to your numbers (1.090-1.030=.060).

So spring pressure would be 32lbs on a 24v spring at 300 bar and 53lbs on a 12v spring at 300 bar. And roughly estimating, at 260 bar 25lbs for a 24v spring and 46lbs on a 12v spring.
 
The difference between the 12v and 24v compression pins and intermediate disks is the difference in installed height. I guess a company whom manufactures springs just doesn't have enough experience to make a justified conclusion. When the same installed height is used on the same holder/nozzle, there is roughly a 10BAR difference, am I speaking the wrong language here?
 
Last edited:
Smokem said:
The difference between the 12v and 24v compression pins and intermediate disks is the difference in installed height. I guess when a company whom manufactures springs just doesn't have enough experience to make a justified conclusion.
Click to expand...

Are the numbers you posted just for the springs.

Conversion injectors utilize a turned down 24v compression pin and 24v intermediate disk. So if those numbers are spring to spring comparison the parts don't matter, unless they are comparing a 12v injector to a 24v injector in that case the numbers are pointless.
 
The springs were the only change, the compression pin was already turned down, I can keep repeating myself if you like.
 
Smokem said:
12v compression spring uninstalled height 1.090" installed height 1.030" is 300BAR

24v compression spring uninstalled height 1.202" installed height 1.162" is 300BAR

12v spring creates 37lbs when compressed 0.040" and 53lbs when compressed 0.060"

24v spring creates 32lbs when compressed 0.040" and 54lbs when compressed 0.060"
Click to expand...

Smokem said:
The difference between the 12v and 24v compression pins and intermediate disks is the difference in installed height. I guess a company whom manufactures springs just doesn't have enough experience to make a justified conclusion. When the same installed height is used on the same holder/nozzle, there is roughly a 10BAR difference, am I speaking the wrong language here?
Click to expand...

You cant use the same installed height, the installed height for the 24v spring is longer than an uncompressed 12v spring.
 
RCP Diesel said:
You cant use the same installed height, the installed height for the 24v spring is longer than an uncompressed 12v spring.
Click to expand...

correct me if im wrong, but he can use the specific installed height in both instances, because he's explaining that the spring rate in both springs are very similar, so there is no need to change the spring..
 
KILLER 'B' said:
correct me if im wrong, but he can use the specific installed height in both instances, because he's explaining that the spring rate in both springs are very similar, so there is no need to change the spring..
Click to expand...

From how I'm seeing it, the 24v spring needs to be compressed .040 to get to 300 bar and the 12v spring needs to be compressed .060 to get to 300 bar.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top