Anything new with the p-pump conversion injectors?

[RCP Diesel]

Just spent a little time with the springs. I believe this will help start to clear things up.

24v spring
Free length: 1.206"
Wire dia: .095"
Coil OD: .346
# of coils: 8.5
SPRING RATE: 867.5lb/in

12v spring
Free length: 1.096"
Wire dia: .082"
Coil OD: .295
# of coils: 8.5
SPRING RATE: 777.0lb/in

Now seat pressures, heres what Weston started testing, but didn't go far enough in my opinion. Also notice that the 24v spring is heavier not lighter.

24v Spring
.040" - 34.70lb
.060" - 52.05lb

12v Spring
.040" - 31.08lb
.060" - 46.62lb

Anyway, the static seat pressures are close as Weston said. 11.65% difference.

This is what I think Don is trying to get across. What happens as the pintle starts to lift?

24v Spring
.080" - 69.40lb
.100" - 86.75lb
.120" - 104.10lb

12v Spring
.080" - 62.16lb
.100" - 77.70lb
.120" - 93.24lb

The difference gets quite a bit bigger as the pintle is starting to lift. The higher the pintle lifts the more the 24v spring wants to close the injector compared to the 12v spring.

Meaning the 24v spring WILL open slower, be fully open for a shorter amount of time, and close faster than a 12v spring.

At the current time I don't know how much of a difference it will make, but its perfectly clear that there is a difference.

Ryan

edit, had to fix a few numbers

 

[Stangpwr71]

Ryan thank you very much..
thanks for spending the time to do what i do not have the equipment for and posting the results.

Now here is a question to possibly add more confusion.
With the different diameter coils, Wire, and total OD. what could be the characteristic differences with heat?

 

[smokin24valve]

have you tried a real set (like the ones your explaining) of p pump 24 valve injectors out? is there a big difference between these instead of just resetting the pop off pressure?

 

[Smokem]

As I said before, it was decided early on that it wasn't worth the time or effort to try and manufacture a conversion spring, that it would be tough to get much closer than the stok 24v piece. This would be the only real cost efficient way to convert many of these injectors. If the main concern was injected quantity of the 24v compression spring, increase the lift slightly and decrease the opening pressure slightly.

 

[RCP Diesel]

As I said before, it was decided early on that it wasn't worth the time or effort to try and manufacture a conversion spring, that it would be tough to get much closer than the stok 24v piece.

Quite possibly too early?

This would be the only real cost efficient way to convert many of these injectors.

Who's talking about cost effectiveness. People considering this want the best damn injector that can be bought. People worried about money run 24v injectors incorrectly set at 260 bar.

If the main concern was injected quantity of the 24v compression spring, increase the lift slightly and decrease the opening pressure slightly.

Im not sure what your trying to say here.

 

[icemanjc1]

I think what he meant was increased pintle lift combined with the lower pop off.

 

[SHughes]

Who's talking about cost effectiveness. People considering this want the best damn injector that can be bought. People worried about money run 24v injectors incorrectly set at 260 bar.

Hopefully one day I can afford to have two sets (one of standard 24v and one converted) on hand to do my own testing, until then I have to run the standard 24v Mach7 injectors I have, and I don't have any problems wth them at all.


But man this is an interesting thread!!!! :Cheer:

 

[RCP Diesel]

Hopefully one day I can afford to have two sets (one of standard 24v and one converted) on hand to do my own testing, until then I have to run the standard 24v Mach7 injectors I have, and I don't have any problems wth them at all.


But man this is an interesting thread!!!! :Cheer:

I've been having very good results with a regular 24v injectors at 300-310 bar, mixed results (usually smoky) at 260 bar. I want to find out if a conversion injector truly is better (and so far it looks that it is) and most importantly HOW much better.

 

[SHughes]

Honestly I wish these guys, who are both very, very good at what they do, could get together and collaborate on a bad ass conversion injector. They both have great ideas and tons of knowledge, but slightly different methodologies, combined they would be unstoppable!!!

Seems to me (the very new guy trying learn anything I can, but don't have time and money to put it into practice)...Weston's extrude honed nozzles, Don's 12v spring conversion and maybe a tighter spray angle woud be perfect for those of us making krazee power.

Now where to set pressures and the different nozzles available are where their expertises would be awesome if combined into a single all out effort.

 

[RonA]

If you were to rig up 1 injector line with a small diameter pressure transducer and then run the voltage signal from the transducer into a digital recording oscilloscope could you record opening and closing of the injector and how fast the delivery valve bleeds off the pressure? Might even be able to add a second input from a cam or crank position sensor and graph changes in timing from the distance between the two signals.

 

[Mudn_1]

seems to me it would be hard to mass produce the "perfect" injector because of every truck being different........

I like the "old" way Weston did things..... you call him and tell him what you do and what you want.......and he build's the injector for you.....that way you get a "custom" setup and not off the shelf like most......

 

[RonA]

How are nozzles made. I assume there is a reason why blank nozzles could not be machined from bar stock.(some odd internal detail that requires casting?)

 

[RCP Diesel]

How are nozzles made. I assume there is a reason why blank nozzles could not be machined from bar stock.(some odd internal detail that requires casting?)

theres a bowl in the nozzle, I'll see if I have a picture.

 

[RCP Diesel]

heres a good one Weston posted up a while back.

 

[Smokem]

Ryan, I posted earlier, but it seems as though things keep coming and going in threads over the last day. Your post was gone earlier, I stated that I believe the numbers I received @ 0.040" were backwards. Your numbers @ 0.040" 12v 31lb and 24v 35lb and the numbers I received should have been 12v 32lb and 24v 37lb.

 

[Smokem]

Quite possibly too early?

No, I make it a point to not tell someone how to do their job when they deal with this type of thing every day.

Who's talking about cost effectiveness. People considering this want the best damn injector that can be bought. People worried about money run 24v injectors incorrectly set at 260 bar.

You can take a raw EDM injector with a bunch of machine work and a 12v compression spring and still have a crap load of nozzle variance. Is this the best damn injector that money can buy? I think not.

Im not sure what your trying to say here.

Increase the pintle lift slightly more than the 12v version, and decrease the opening pressure slightly more than the 12v version, simple, no additional cost. Do you have any flow numbers to compare with the difference in sac volume or needle lift?

 

[Smokem]

seems to me it would be hard to mass produce the "perfect" injector because of every truck being different........

I like the "old" way Weston did things..... you call him and tell him what you do and what you want.

I agree Brad, it's not the "old" way, that won't change.

 

[RCP Diesel]

No, I make it a point to not tell someone how to do their job when they deal with this type of thing every day.

Relax Weston. No one is telling you how to do your job. I just want to see fact. I don't care if a conversion injector is worth it or not, I just want proof.

 

[Smokem]

I agree Ryan, I am glad you looked into the springs rates a bit further, I never bothered to get the information from Gardner after our conversation. I should have some interesting numbers back later this week concerning needle lift vs flow, I'm not shy about posting that information.

 

[RCP Diesel]

I agree Ryan, I am glad you looked into the springs rates a bit further, I never bothered to get the information from Gardner after our conversation. I should have some interesting numbers back later this week concerning needle lift vs flow, I'm not shy about posting that information.

Ill be looking forward to it. I hope to get some more interesting numbers of my own.