best aftermarket valve springs

Stock valvesprings with around 78lbs of seat pressure allow the valve to blow open at 50psi. On the bench with 95lbs of seat pressure, they blow open at about 59psi, and if your rpms are higher than factory or you have aftermarket pushrods your valves still are not being properly controled. Valve float is much more dangerous to a valvetrain than 30lbs of extra seat pressure. More spring pressure is necessary to control the valvetrain, that is a fact.
 
Jetpilot said:
I don't agree with the spring pressure issue and it not hurting valves. Maybe using some good aftermarket valves but the OEM units are delicate in my opinion. This is one set that a valve broke and took out the cylinder. I have seen too many like this and all were on trucks running pretty high seat and open pressure.

So egt's were not an issue in any one of those cases? Every valve that I have ever seen fail, was 1) an exhaust valve, 2) was in a truck with excessive egt's 3) had stock valve springs.

I'm sorry Jetpilot but I have to disagree with you.
 
Well thats the beauty of things we can disagree..... You are correct in seeing the exhaust valves have more issues everyone should expect this. I have run aftermarket springs for many years now and it is from experience that I would never put a high seat pressure spring in a 24v street engine running OEM valves.
 
BOTW, the motor came out last night, I should have it torn down soon and we can all see what the piston actually looks like.

The head I still have along with the parts that didn't break, it was good bed weight for my little truck in the ice storm :)

Jim
 
There are a couple of things here I want to mention. Firstly, the use of titanium retainers for daily driven engines is a death warrant for durability. There really is no way around it. The material is just not best for long term in this application. It will fail with prolonged use.

On to springs: Our Pro/Sport springs are 90-94 pounds on the seat ( depending on your final installed height ) and with most cams around 225 lbs on the nose. Which is getting close to all you want and certainly all you would ever need. This compares to under 80 and 175 for the stock spring. Keeping in mind that the stock springs are fine for the mildly modified engines that run the stock RPM ranges and back pressures. The Pros are designed with enough pressure for control but not so much that the bad side effects of a heavier spring are harmful. Push tube deflection/bending, retainer failure, lock failure and accelerated cross head wear are all within a safe limit. Heavier springs, we found, increase wear and the chances of failures. Also, the camshaft in the Cummins is the single highest wearing piece. Nothing else is even close. This is why Cummins during oil testing for new formulations always go to the cam wear testing and data first. They know if the oil will pass the 350 hour test for the 5.9 and 6.7 it will be fine for other hard parts. Finally, cam and block journal interfaces on the furthest rear journal is of particular concern and the first thing to begin a downward spiral. This journal always fails first. It may be in part because the Cummins block uses only one bearing insert ( the number 1) where the thrust loads are highest from the cam gear. Also the rear journals distance from the thrust loads applied on the nose coupled with the leverage of the long (31”) camshaft itself pushing on the rear journal.

Sure you can change the push tube material to something more robust to run a high pressure spring, but you still do not address the retainers, locks, high cross head wear, very fast cam lobe wear rates, and the HP loss associated with compressing the heavier springs.

Unfortunately, I have seen the damage caused by too much spring used it the Cummins. It is expensive when things go wrong. Recalling that we could have used any pressure we wanted as the final design, but we had enough data to support NOT going any higher. The benefits are: never a retainer or lock failure by any customer, the lowest possible cam wear rates, enough pressure to control the valves, and less frictional horsepower drag/loss.

As the first company to bring a drop in spring to the market for the 5.9 Cummins - years ahead of the rest - we have an exhaustive data set and customer base to use in evaluation for future improvements. Some of which have been implemented already.

SN~
 
At that seat pressure (mid 90's), blow open ocurrs at roughly 78 psi. 110 psi seat pressure will go just shy of 100 psi boost. This has been verified by using a calibrated pressure gauge and an additional gauge to verify accuracy. We use a plate to cover the heater grid and use compressed air to fill the plenum. Achieved maximum pressure was as noted above. I agree, that there is a point of balance between rpm, boost and accellerated cam wear. We have been running 110 on the seat for over a year with NO signs of wear. No soot in the intake plenum, to indicate reversion or mixed cycles. We don't run valve seals on the exhaust side, due to oil coking at the top of the guide, keeping oil from properly lubing the valve guides. The side effects are a little more soot in the oil, and a little oil smoke at start up. The positive effect is virtually unlimited guide life and higher drive pressures before blow open can ocurr. We offset the additional crancase pressure with a puke tank, and cover the soot with a 2 micron bypass filter. Some longevity tricks for the modded 5.9
 
I have the race proven MaxSpool Pushrods with over 200 sets out there with zero bent. I have them is standard, +.100 +.200 along with the MaxSpool double Spring and Titanium Retainer package

This spring package is the same spring that regularly goes to 6000 rpm on the NitroFlash Truck. This is all the spring you will ever need, Dr. Performances Diesel power Specialty’s Warehouse and Industrial Injection both use and carry this spring package along with the entire MaxSpool line of valve train products

Well this is the package I got... double spring (110psi) titanium retainers and the standard maxspool pushrods along with (not mentioned anywhere here) the rocker arm studs. This is for use with the TNT/r smarty tune... thats alot of $$$...So, I hope the faith is justified...:kick:
 
Guys, don't forget to consider the actual weight (mass) of the spring when choosing springs. Alot of people get caught up in the steel versus titanium retainer debate and forget to consider the mass of the spring itself.

Two springs with identical pressures and rates will float at different rpm levels based on how much of the spring pressure is consumed in controlling the mass of the spring itself.

I've seen dual springs float 500 rpm sooner than a single spring with the same pressure just because the dual spring was 50 grams heavier.

Using a Beehive design spring will let you get the weight of the steel retainer comparable with Titanium.

In some cases less is more. :D
 
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Titaniun retainers on a daily driven vehicle is not good. The Cummins is a durability engine first, IMO.

here are a few examples I found with a quick search:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1962636

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bria...emQQcategoryZ33614QQihZ008QQitemZ180172446419


I have rebuilt many of the Cummins 24V cylinder heads and I seen very little stem tip wear with spring pressures that were not crazy. On the other hand, I just saw one recently with 7000 miles of use with these heavier springs and 3 of them were needing resurfacing. One pair was smashed out .074"
 
:bangshould have looked at this thread first, but anyway.........

06 CR s300/s400 55-80 psi boost.

No more then 4k rpms

New seats but what do i need for the rest of the head. This a daily driven truck that pulls heavy.

What seat pressure?
What spring pressure?
What keepers?
What retainers? Titanium, steel?
What pushrods? Stock, aftermarket?
 
Titaniun retainers on a daily driven vehicle is not good. The Cummins is a durability engine first, IMO.

here are a few examples I found with a quick search:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1962636

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bria...emQQcategoryZ33614QQihZ008QQitemZ180172446419


I have rebuilt many of the Cummins 24V cylinder heads and I seen very little stem tip wear with spring pressures that were not crazy. On the other hand, I just saw one recently with 7000 miles of use with these heavier springs and 3 of them were needing resurfacing. One pair was smashed out .074"

I wondered when the Honda H22 valve springs would become public information.
 
The real culprit with these failures is the new oil formulations, NOT the spring pressures. Rotella has changed their formulation 4 times in the last 18 months to keep their oil from damaging DPFs . To prove this PDR has sold thousands of sets of springs for the 24v with 140lbs of seat pressure without issues. The ONLY variable that has changed is new oil with less zinc. Most of the cam failures I have seen have been due to use of worn lifters or the use of reground 12v cams like the h2 with narrow lobes,not spring pressure. Do the math look at the lobe width and tell me it isn't a 12v cam. Cummins took this into consideration when they designed th 24v and CR cams the lobes are getting wider and wider. Some 12v cams have as little as .750" wide lobes where 24v are around 1" and the CR are around 1.020" the new 6.7 are even wider than that. As far as sportsman springs being at any pressure you designed them for, you have to design them first. Selling a honda spring and saying thats the pressure you designed them at is a half truth. And lets not forget seat pressure never killed a single cam, it is the pressure at the nose of the cam. Adequate seat pressure is a must if you want to control the valvetrain. To fix real problem , film strength of the oil we use zddp plus from kirbanperformance.com except on 6.7 where it will damage dpfs
 
Oil formulation

The real culprit with these failures is the new oil formulations, NOT the spring pressures. Rotella has changed their formulation 4 times in the last 18 months to keep their oil from damaging DPFs . To prove this PDR has sold thousands of sets of springs for the 24v with 140lbs of seat pressure without issues. The ONLY variable that has changed is new oil with less zinc. Most of the cam failures I have seen have been due to use of worn lifters or the use of reground 12v cams like the h2 with narrow lobes,not spring pressure. Do the math look at the lobe width and tell me it isn't a 12v cam. Cummins took this into consideration when they designed th 24v and CR cams the lobes are getting wider and wider. Some 12v cams have as little as .750" wide lobes where 24v are around 1" and the CR are around 1.020" the new 6.7 are even wider than that. As far as sportsman springs being at any pressure you designed them for, you have to design them first. Selling a honda spring and saying thats the pressure you designed them at is a half truth. And lets not forget seat pressure never killed a single cam, it is the pressure at the nose of the cam. Adequate seat pressure is a must if you want to control the valvetrain. To fix real problem , film strength of the oil we use zddp plus from kirbanperformance.com except on 6.7 where it will damage dpfs

I had this exact conversation with a well known performance machine shop owner yesterday and he validated your comments exactly regarding the oil formulation issue. He suggested using GM EOS, which most know is an excellent product for break-in purposes of internal parts. My question would be is this a product then that we could/should use at an oil change interval which would help with these issues.
 
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I have been told by people that manufacture oil, that an addative that will maintain the oils film strength is a must every oil change. STP carries an oil addative at Wal-mart that has quite a bit of zddp in it, the problem with that is that it is super thick stuff, whereas zddplus from kirban performance is much lighter and does not affect the oil viscosity as much.
 
Any thoughts on,..

I have been told by people that manufacture oil, that an addative that will maintain the oils film strength is a must every oil change. STP carries an oil addative at Wal-mart that has quite a bit of zddp in it, the problem with that is that it is super thick stuff, whereas zddplus from kirban performance is much lighter and does not affect the oil viscosity as much.

The EOS?
 
The real culprit with these failures is the new oil formulations, NOT the spring pressures. Rotella has changed their formulation 4 times in the last 18 months to keep their oil from damaging DPFs . To prove this PDR has sold thousands of sets of springs for the 24v with 140lbs of seat pressure without issues. The ONLY variable that has changed is new oil with less zinc. Most of the cam failures I have seen have been due to use of worn lifters or the use of reground 12v cams like the h2 with narrow lobes,not spring pressure. Do the math look at the lobe width and tell me it isn't a 12v cam. Cummins took this into consideration when they designed th 24v and CR cams the lobes are getting wider and wider. Some 12v cams have as little as .750" wide lobes where 24v are around 1" and the CR are around 1.020" the new 6.7 are even wider than that. As far as sportsman springs being at any pressure you designed them for, you have to design them first. Selling a honda spring and saying thats the pressure you designed them at is a half truth. And lets not forget seat pressure never killed a single cam, it is the pressure at the nose of the cam. Adequate seat pressure is a must if you want to control the valvetrain. To fix real problem , film strength of the oil we use zddp plus from kirbanperformance.com except on 6.7 where it will damage dpfs

Alot of this mess you are posting is nonsense, but the most important things you are wrong about are:

Firstly, and I know you already know this, we dont regrind stock 12V cams.

Second, we dont use a honda spring. Im sure you know this too and are posting this to start trouble.

So, keep it up and you will find yourself in the same boat as comp.
 
I am curious??

IS the cast iron, spring steel, titanium etc that we use in our diesels patently different than that used in a high performance gasser engine

I mean I am readin many places on the various diesel forums about component failures at rediculously low rpms, spring pressures, etc etc

So our cams - with a muchroom lifter no less, are failing at anything more than 200lbs over the nose when a gasser cast iron cam can withstand almost 400 lbs and using a standard lifter? Mushroom lifters being a superior load carrier

Titanium retainers are failing from fatigue because of extended use? whereas again the gassers get years

Pushrods - flexing and breaking under less than 200lbs over the nose pressure?

what gives?
thanx
 
Firstly, and I know you already know this, we dont regrind stock 12V cams.

Second, we dont use a honda spring. Im sure you know this too and are posting this to start trouble.

So, keep it up and you will find yourself in the same boat as comp.

Man a little testy are we?
 
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