Borg SXE vs Garrett GTX

[tall boy]

Well the experience I have is that a S480SX4 or even a home build S482SX4 with a modified turbine housing will last longer and even out performs the GTX4508R on the diesels we run.

The bigger SX4 96/88mm turbine dos a far better job on pulling a 5,5L super sport engine or even engines up to 16L will have better low end or spool-up and lower EGT manly due to less EMP. And yes BW only makes 1.15A/R for this turbine group but we can go a lot lower in A/R by using other turbine housing and machine them to fit and are not the ones used on the 92/82mm turbine used by CAT and some other brands.

To bad they are not building the S472SX-E with the 96/88 turbine but hope to test this turbine config both with the 82/88 and 96/88 turbine site in the next half year and come up with the real time test data.

All ball bearing we have to use on diesel applications have speed sensor fitted to pull back power if we go over 110% RPM. They just blow up to easy and are hard to maintain and cannot be serviced other than cartridge replacement and do not like even the smallest bit of dirt in the oil supply so you have to treat it as a diva as well.

We sell GTX for petrol application and yes great stuff for a upgrade from a TGR but for me ball bearing on diesel is a no go except for the big axial turbochargers that is but these are way to big for sport application.

Just my comment on things so pick a side and don’t shoot me please.:aiwebs_032:

 

[fatgraderman]

Have your GTX4294R upgraded to a 4594 or smaller trim CW 4502.

Could hybrids like that be assembled reasonably easily? Are the compressor sides dimensionally similar? Could one of those turbines be assembled with a compressor side for 2.5/ 2.6? Our classes up here don't allow for clipping or exaggerated MWE, so we'd be talking something comparable to S464 and S466. An older 3788 or 4088 would be lacking on both sides wouldn't they?

 

[Marq92]

Sorry I don't have any experience to help you. I only know what is available from searching around. I would talk to Weston, he sells Garretts.

 

[USARMY12V]

Could hybrids like that be assembled reasonably easily? Are the compressor sides dimensionally similar? Could one of those turbines be assembled with a compressor side for 2.5/ 2.6? Our classes up here don't allow for clipping or exaggerated MWE, so we'd be talking something comparable to S464 and S466. An older 3788 or 4088 would be lacking on both sides wouldn't they?

A lot depends on the wording of the particular set of rules you intend to pull with, but he sells a radius wheeled 2.5 charger on his website, Infinite Performance. Link in his signature... 2.5 seems to vary a lot between areas so may want to post up the information you want a turbo to pass with before ordering anything. S400 based turbos seem to be the majority of 2.5 builds though.

 

[Smokem]

Could hybrids like that be assembled reasonably easily? Are the compressor sides dimensionally similar? Could one of those turbines be assembled with a compressor side for 2.5/ 2.6? Our classes up here don't allow for clipping or exaggerated MWE, so we'd be talking something comparable to S464 and S466. An older 3788 or 4088 would be lacking on both sides wouldn't they?

Yes it is done quite often, the back plate needs replaced on the GT45 to use a GT42 compressor cover, the shafts are the same size.

 

[SmokinCAT]

Well the experience I have is that a S480SX4 or even a home build S482SX4 with a modified turbine housing will last longer and even out performs the GTX4508R on the diesels we run.

The bigger SX4 96/88mm turbine dos a far better job on pulling a 5,5L super sport engine or even engines up to 16L will have better low end or spool-up and lower EGT manly due to less EMP. And yes BW only makes 1.15A/R for this turbine group but we can go a lot lower in A/R by using other turbine housing and machine them to fit and are not the ones used on the 92/82mm turbine used by CAT and some other brands.

To bad they are not building the S472SX-E with the 96/88 turbine but hope to test this turbine config both with the 82/88 and 96/88 turbine site in the next half year and come up with the real time test data.

All ball bearing we have to use on diesel applications have speed sensor fitted to pull back power if we go over 110% RPM. They just blow up to easy and are hard to maintain and cannot be serviced other than cartridge replacement and do not like even the smallest bit of dirt in the oil supply so you have to treat it as a diva as well.

We sell GTX for petrol application and yes great stuff for a upgrade from a TGR but for me ball bearing on diesel is a no go except for the big axial turbochargers that is but these are way to big for sport application.

Just my comment on things so pick a side and don’t shoot me please.:aiwebs_032:

You aren't even using close to the same frame size, comparing a turbo with a 87mm turbine with one that has a 96mm turbine it isn't hard to see why there is a major performance difference.

 

[tall boy]

You aren't even using close to the same frame size, comparing a turbo with a 87mm turbine with one that has a 96mm turbine it isn't hard to see why there is a major performance difference.

Well SmokinCat bottom line is we run all of the S400SX3 family with the 74/83 and 81/87 turbine on 80% of all our applications and where possible we upgrade to the 88/96 turbine as it performs better and we have the parts to do so to create a smaller A/R TH so we have this advantage there. Result of this all is that we start upgrading S474 up to S482 to the 96/88 turbine and chance is we going to do the same with the new S472SX-E and compare these to the data of he 81/87 turbine. Will be interesting to see what the increased turbo speed will do with EMP compared to the S476SX3 that we have a load of data on.
As for the 1.25A/R TH on the 81/87 turbine the 1.15A/R TH 88/96 turbine will outperform it on spool-up and efficiency and drops EMP lot.

In general BW and Garrett build al load of turbochargers for petrol engines that we intend to use on diesel but I think it’s a big compromise on diesel engines running up to 3200Rpm as the big bang from a diesel is not coming to very good use on a small diameter turbine wheel as these small wheel are build for lower pressure and there for more flow for a longer time and there for lack the ability to give that better spool-up and efficiency as you need to go a lot smaller on the TH while using a smaller turbine wheel. Also on a petrol engine it’s normal to have more EMP as MAP. Combustion pressure on a petrol engine is not that hi so therefore a pressure pulse on opening the exhaust valve is not that great needing a smaller wheel to convert all exhaust gas to turbine shaft power. On a diesel we got this big pressure wave on opening the exhaust valve and how nice will it be if you got this great big service on the turbine blades to convert this engine into turbo shaft power. And as for exhaust gas volume, well most of it will be in the big bang but after this not a lot is left so better have a large flow area to expand the big bang and get it to good use.

 

[Leiffi]

Your routine negative comments on this site make it very clear you have no interest in ever offering beneficial advice, but in saying this your comments also make it very clear you are out of touch when it comes to the facts.

My advice is dont buy modified bs chargers from so called experts. Cheater mwe groove and other us pulling specific turbochargers I am not interested in.

 

[SmokinCAT]

Well SmokinCat bottom line is we run all of the S400SX3 family with the 74/83 and 81/87 turbine on 80% of all our applications and where possible we upgrade to the 88/96 turbine as it performs better and we have the parts to do so to create a smaller A/R TH so we have this advantage there. Result of this all is that we start upgrading S474 up to S482 to the 96/88 turbine and chance is we going to do the same with the new S472SX-E and compare these to the data of he 81/87 turbine. Will be interesting to see what the increased turbo speed will do with EMP compared to the S476SX3 that we have a load of data on.
As for the 1.25A/R TH on the 81/87 turbine the 1.15A/R TH 88/96 turbine will outperform it on spool-up and efficiency and drops EMP lot.

In general BW and Garrett build al load of turbochargers for petrol engines that we intend to use on diesel but I think it’s a big compromise on diesel engines running up to 3200Rpm as the big bang from a diesel is not coming to very good use on a small diameter turbine wheel as these small wheel are build for lower pressure and there for more flow for a longer time and there for lack the ability to give that better spool-up and efficiency as you need to go a lot smaller on the TH while using a smaller turbine wheel. Also on a petrol engine it’s normal to have more EMP as MAP. Combustion pressure on a petrol engine is not that hi so therefore a pressure pulse on opening the exhaust valve is not that great needing a smaller wheel to convert all exhaust gas to turbine shaft power. On a diesel we got this big pressure wave on opening the exhaust valve and how nice will it be if you got this great big service on the turbine blades to convert this engine into turbo shaft power. And as for exhaust gas volume, well most of it will be in the big bang but after this not a lot is left so better have a large flow area to expand the big bang and get it to good use.

And my GT55 out performs the S410 I took off, that is what your comparisons look like.

 

[Smokem]

My advice is dont buy modified bs chargers from so called experts. Cheater mwe groove and other us pulling specific turbochargers I am not interested in.

It seems as though you are not interested in anything that is relevant. I'm not quite sure why you continue to comment on threads here, you obviously have nothing useful to add, and are out of touch with reality on the amount of power being produced for any class of competition.

 

[Smokem]

In general BW and Garrett build a load of turbochargers for petrol engines that we intend to use on diesel but I think it’s a big compromise on diesel engines running up to 3200RPM as the big bang from a diesel is not coming to very good use on a small diameter turbine wheel as these small wheel are build for lower pressure and there for more flow for a longer time and there for lack the ability to give that better spool-up and efficiency as you need to go a lot smaller on the TH while using a smaller turbine wheel.

We have compared many turbines with the similar or the same compressor side, in many variations with and without MWE grooves, from what I have seen my opinion is the turbine design is far more important than the overall diameter, as long as the turbine exducer meets/exceeds the compressor inducer.

 

[blackmega3500]

We have compared many turbines with the similar or the same compressor side, in many variations with and without MWE grooves, from what I have seen my opinion is the turbine design is far more important than the overall diameter, as long as the turbine exducer meets/exceeds the compressor inducer.

I think you'd agree to an older "debate" where the topics of turbine efficiency maps are crucial, but rarely accessible.

 

[tall boy]

And my GT55 out performs the S410 I took off, that is what your comparisons look like.

GT55 you better compare most of them to the S500SX not a smaller S410 please, and yes I think the S488SX-E turbine looks silly on this new charger but maybe it will work for some.
And yes the GTX5518R 81.8MM could be a good option for a big displacement engine but did not see the 48 Trim, 81.8/117.6 mm in/exducer compressor flowmap to compare so can not comment on that part. Maybe post one?

 

[tall boy]

We have compared many turbines with the similar or the same compressor side, in many variations with and without MWE grooves, from what I have seen my opinion is the turbine design is far more important than the overall diameter, as long as the turbine exducer meets/exceeds the compressor inducer.

SmoKem we both got our favourites on what to use best. I do not like to run ball bearings as hard as we run journal bearing, we can not service them like a journal one. They can not dampen a lot of harmonics so all the surgeline carp having by far the most diesel classes that are RPM or inlet size restricted (not inducer size) and will give a turbo a hard live. GT or even GTX is non existing on diesel classes on this part of Europe and we seen some GTr on B division race trucks in the UK but again only journal ones on the A division or FIA race trucks factory supported (in the past). So sorry for Garrett ball bearings.

Maybe even the Garrett turbine wheels are better but the complete turbo dos not work for us same as we do not use the BW AFR on diesel as well al do a lot smaller in size as what we normally need.

 

[SmokinCAT]

GT55 you better compare most of them to the S500SX not a smaller S410 please, and yes I think the S488SX-E turbine looks silly on this new charger but maybe it will work for some.
And yes the GTX5518R 81.8MM could be a good option for a big displacement engine but did not see the 48 Trim, 81.8/117.6 mm in/exducer compressor flowmap to compare so can not comment on that part. Maybe post one?

Who said mine was a 5518, mine is a 5523 with a 84mm inducer, and I wont even bother with the S500 being that even BW says it doesnt flow nearly as well as it should compared to its own 96/88mm turbine.

My point is that you are talking about going with the 96/88mm turbine and only talking about a GT45 when in all reality you should only be comparing it to a GT50.

 

[tall boy]

Who said mine was a 5518, mine is a 5523 with a 84mm inducer, and I wont even bother with the S500 being that even BW says it doesnt flow nearly as well as it should compared to its own 96/88mm turbine.

My point is that you are talking about going with the 96/88mm turbine and only talking about a GT45 when in all reality you should only be comparing it to a GT50.

OK GT(X50) seems to have a 98/90 turbine wheel but what Comp wheel size dos it come as for options?

S500 turbine flow. Well yes depends a lot on what you are using it for and I want to have a bigger turbine wheel as well there is always the option of using a Holset HX82 with G trim wheel for example. The EMP numbers on the S500SX are not that bad considering we can get things moving on small displacements engines using the smallest 2 TH sizes running them @ 115K RPM.
Funny thing is we sell more S500SX for pulling than S400SX and they seem to work well and many go in as a replacement to the HX60 up to HX82.

If Garrett did build some bigger GTW journal version?? What if.

 

[SmokinCAT]

OK GT(X50) seems to have a 98/90 turbine wheel but what Comp wheel size dos it come as for options?

S500 turbine flow. Well yes depends a lot on what you are using it for and I want to have a bigger turbine wheel as well there is always the option of using a Holset HX82 with G trim wheel for example. The EMP numbers on the S500SX are not that bad considering we can get things moving on small displacements engines using the smallest 2 TH sizes running them @ 115K RPM.
Funny thing is we sell more S500SX for pulling than S400SX and they seem to work well and many go in as a replacement to the HX60 up to HX82.

If Garrett did build some bigger GTW journal version?? What if.

They build journal bearing turbos for OEMs in every frame as far as I know. Mine is off of a QSX15 and is a journal.

 

[zfaylor]

Probably more large frame journal garretts out there than ball bearing considering the hundreds of thousands of large frame oem chargers out there like smokincat mentioned..

This is like Ford vs Chevy to a point. For me I see more failed Garrett based chargers come through the door than borg, ihi, mitsubishi, etc.. We will leave Holset out of this since their vgts came along LOL

The things I see are either stub shaft garretts exploding or they typically just push oil. Nearly every borg failure I see is catastrophic. I like borg chargers but they seem to get to the point of wheels destroying themselves far too common considering Garretts outnumber borg in OEM apps by a large margin.

Failures aside it appears the borg guys need a lot more turbo under the hood to do the things some of my customers are doing with Garretts. Admittedly I am not vastly well versed with the Garrett performance products but those are generally what I see. Bare in mind I do more reman work than performance work.

 

[Smokem]

OK GT(X50) seems to have a 98/90 turbine wheel but what Comp wheel size dos it come as for options?

It is 91/99mm, in stub shaft journal bearing form it was commonly paired with a 82/118mm compressor.

Funny thing is we sell more S500SX for pulling than S400SX and they seem to work well and many go in as a replacement to the HX60 up to HX82.

We have had a few instances where the 88/96mm S400 turbine has come close in power to the 92/97mm HX60, but in no instance have we seen an S500 with similar sized compressor make more power than either.

 

[tall boy]

It is 91/99mm, in stub shaft journal bearing form it was commonly paired with a 82/118mm compressor.



We have had a few instances where the 88/96mm S400 turbine has come close in power to the 92/97mm HX60, but in no instance have we seen an S500 with similar sized compressor make more power than either.

On Garrett we do not hold a lot of info and hard to get parts and if they have a label with CAT on it they are ridiculously expensive in Europe and no factory support eider.

Please do not even start on HX60 as we build a fantastic pile of expensive scrap with them in the past having wheel slipping on the shaft bending shafts breaking them ripping turbine wheel of the shaft having wheel bust even on both sides having trust bearing failures and the list goes on, so main motivation to get something better on all fronts. Sorry I do not believe in Holset fairytales any more.

On the S500 did you look into the specifications using a very small inducer size comp wheel? I wonder if IT even exist? Its not like you can throw some parts together hoping it will work.
Even building a S500 with a 86mm inducer size is a no go as for efficiency.

Coming back on topic. S300SX-E is on the marked and on topic but S400SX-E and S500SX-E is still a unknown so for me only speculation on how to compare it. And yes turbine wheels and TH as for now no chance.