Building a Performance Marine Engines

I know, it's only rock & roll, but I love it so:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71xk22zSyHA"]Cowes Teignmouth (Torquay) Cowes powerboat race 2012 outward leg at Portland Bill - YouTube[/ame]

(mute the music until abt 1.45, when the REAL musica starts.

Cowes Teignmouth (Torquay) Cowes powerboat race 2012 Portland Bill - return leg - YouTube

Pretty typical day on the English Channel.

The winner, Microlink averaged a taste shy of 65mph for the 250 miles. 40-odd started, 8 finished.

Who wants a ride?
 
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WUnderwood said:
one of the better threads going on right now.

carry on gentlemen!
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Not only has it been fun for all (possibly except for the Duramax duo), the information I have gotten has been invaluable - a TRUE education.

There are people here that, yanno, actually KNOW stuff and are willing to share.

++ y'all
 
goatskin said:
Push rods? ... Call Bend Oregon.

.
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They're in Redmond now, also sub'd for the info.

There's been rumors of fleece building a standalone vvt controller, might be worth a call.



Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
 
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chevota84 said:
... There's been rumors of fleece building a standalone vvt controller, might be worth a call.
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I've got to puzzle on this fleece thing, some.

As attractive as it looks on 1st (and 13th) glance, I'm not sure the physics have anything to do with what I'm doing.

Discounting a lot of facts that are friction-related ... in theory, a propeller will move (say) 40" in one revolution, therefore, assuming I have enough torque to overcome the resistance of the water, what will move me further, faster is to increase rpm, no?

Backing off turns, increasing torque and increasing boost ... adding 'cheap' horsepower, as it were, 'costs' rather than 'gives' ... unless I am missing something pretty elementary, right?

The fastest I will be able to go is when the limits of the prop are reached, and that is (mostly) a function of rpm. I know that I will run out of prop before I run out of horses.

Or maybe I'm all wet, and Fleece is getting me to trade boost for additional fuel to make more turns? In which case, why don't I run high and higher boost from the get-go?

My useable rpm band is not very wide, it will take 22-2400turns to get on plane, then pick some level of cruise between plane and break something, and just eyeballing, my guess for WOT (shaft, not engine) will be 3000-3200, maybe 33.

I don't see the physics of Fleece (for me).

My poor haid.
 
I think what chevota is getting at is the fleece vvt setup could in theory be used for when the boat comes out of the water to help avoid breaking a prop or prop shaft upon re-entry into the water. I may be mistaken as well. Amazing thread, I look forward to the information to come.


-KCCO-
 
goatskin said:
I've got to puzzle on this fleece thing, some.

As attractive as it looks on 1st (and 13th) glance, I'm not sure the physics have anything to do with what I'm doing.

Discounting a lot of facts that are friction-related ... in theory, a propeller will move (say) 40" in one revolution, therefore, assuming I have enough torque to overcome the resistance of the water, what will move me further, faster is to increase rpm, no?

Backing off turns, increasing torque and increasing boost ... adding 'cheap' horsepower, as it were, 'costs' rather than 'gives' ... unless I am missing something pretty elementary, right?

The fastest I will be able to go is when the limits of the prop are reached, and that is (mostly) a function of rpm. I know that I will run out of prop before I run out of horses.

Or maybe I'm all wet, and Fleece is getting me to trade boost for additional fuel to make more turns? In which case, why don't I run high and higher boost from the get-go?

My useable rpm band is not very wide, it will take 22-2400turns to get on plane, then pick some level of cruise between plane and break something, and just eyeballing, my guess for WOT (shaft, not engine) will be 3000-3200, maybe 33.

I don't see the physics of Fleece (for me).

My poor haid.
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well, if you wanted to go faster with more turns without cavitation...just put the prop deeper in the water...


on second thought...that does not work with boats that float...
 
goatskin said:
The marine dry sump systems with which I am familiar have rare earth magnets, so a bolt-on is not needed and oil chemistry is tested every 10-15 hours.
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I could be wrong, this is you're show.... but wouldn't it be a huge asset to know rather instantly if something has started to wear excessively?
A lot can happen in 10-15 hours when the engine is balls to the walls...

And what about aluminum particles?
 
goatskin said:
I've got to puzzle on this fleece thing, some.

As attractive as it looks on 1st (and 13th) glance, I'm not sure the physics have anything to do with what I'm doing.

Discounting a lot of facts that are friction-related ... in theory, a propeller will move (say) 40" in one revolution, therefore, assuming I have enough torque to overcome the resistance of the water, what will move me further, faster is to increase rpm, no?

Backing off turns, increasing torque and increasing boost ... adding 'cheap' horsepower, as it were, 'costs' rather than 'gives' ... unless I am missing something pretty elementary, right?

The fastest I will be able to go is when the limits of the prop are reached, and that is (mostly) a function of rpm. I know that I will run out of prop before I run out of horses.

Or maybe I'm all wet, and Fleece is getting me to trade boost for additional fuel to make more turns? In which case, why don't I run high and higher boost from the get-go?

My useable rpm band is not very wide, it will take 22-2400turns to get on plane, then pick some level of cruise between plane and break something, and just eyeballing, my guess for WOT (shaft, not engine) will be 3000-3200, maybe 33.

I don't see the physics of Fleece (for me).

My poor haid.
Click to expand...


I will do my best to explain this, and my train of thought, but please feel free anyone to correct me if I'm wrong.

A 6 to 8 liter diesel, without any turbo, will only make 150-200 HP roughly. Even a 10 liter engine, without a turbo, could likely only pump out 300 HP.
Turbocharing works great, but the turbochargers are spun from the exhuast gas, and the exhuast gas velocity is created from burning fuel. So, in essence, you will only be able to spool the turbochargers when the engine is LOADED.
The second you leave the water, the engine will stop fueling as hard, and you'll start losing boost. When you hit the water again, you desire full power again, but depending on how much boost you lose, it might not be available till the turbochargers hit full boost again.
This could really depend on the size of turbochargers, as they take time to lose speed, and gain speed, so it really depends how long you're out of the water VS how long it takes for them to lose/ gain speed.
This is one instance, where a VVT turbo could help you; if you could adjust the turbo, so that when you leave the water, it acts as a smaller turbo, and attempts to boost harder, it will help the boost stay high, so that when you hit the water again, the boost will be higher, so you have more instant power. A supercharger relies on engine RPM to make positive induction pressure, but turbo's rely on exhuast gas, thus, engine loading will effect boost as well as RPM.

The #2 use I see a VVT turbo being good for you, is being able to adjust it to operating conditions. If you need 70 lbs of boost to make full speed power, but you're getting 120 lbs of boost, you're wasting energy and fuel. Likewise, if you want to "eco cruise" sometimes, you'll most likeley want to boost the engine harder to avoid high EGT's.

By adjusting a turbocharger, you can have the best of both worlds.

In a sled pulling truck, I don't think they have this need, cause fuel isn't an issue, and all they do is red line the engine for a few hundred feet at full power.
 
parkland said:
I could be wrong, this is you're show.... but wouldn't it be a huge asset to know rather instantly if something has started to wear excessively?
A lot can happen in 10-15 hours when the engine is balls to the walls...

And what about aluminum particles?
Click to expand...

Not sure you would be able to monitor the non-ferrous particulate all that well….you could have a dual filtration setup…with one strainer on standby and another in service…perform a shift-clean-inspect once an hour??? May not have the manpower for that in a race environment and a skeleton crew (but if you need help with that…I know a guy who would gladly volunteer to spin wrenches :) )


You may have to let the non-ferrous stuff fail...would bet the ferrous stuff is not too far behind
 
goatskin said:
I've got to puzzle on this fleece thing, some.

As attractive as it looks on 1st (and 13th) glance, I'm not sure the physics have anything to do with what I'm doing.

Discounting a lot of facts that are friction-related ... in theory, a propeller will move (say) 40" in one revolution, therefore, assuming I have enough torque to overcome the resistance of the water, what will move me further, faster is to increase rpm, no?

Backing off turns, increasing torque and increasing boost ... adding 'cheap' horsepower, as it were, 'costs' rather than 'gives' ... unless I am missing something pretty elementary, right?

The fastest I will be able to go is when the limits of the prop are reached, and that is (mostly) a function of rpm. I know that I will run out of prop before I run out of horses.

Or maybe I'm all wet, and Fleece is getting me to trade boost for additional fuel to make more turns? In which case, why don't I run high and higher boost from the get-go?

My useable rpm band is not very wide, it will take 22-2400turns to get on plane, then pick some level of cruise between plane and break something, and just eyeballing, my guess for WOT (shaft, not engine) will be 3000-3200, maybe 33.

I don't see the physics of Fleece (for me).

My poor haid.
Click to expand...

A vvt would give you more tuning options and Brayden is a pretty smart guy. It adds to the complexity of the whole package, so I'm not sure if that's the direction you'd want to go. However, vvt's have been used in the class 8 trucks for quite some time now with reasonable service life. It would be an interesting area to explore to see if a vvt could fit into your plans.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
 
Could put a brake somewhere on the driveline to use when going out of the water to help load the system. Kind of like us brake boosting during launches.
 
USARMY12V said:
Could put a brake somewhere on the driveline to use when going out of the water to help load the system. Kind of like us brake boosting during launches.
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I thought of that too, like a trans brake, but if the boat is only touching the water half the time, thats a lot of wasted fuel....:st:
 
Has a platform has been established for the venture yet? Motions put into place to see it through to completed competition boat?

Just curious since this thread was so fast paced and now comparitively dead.
 
SmokeShow said:
Has a platform has been established for the venture yet? Motions put into place to see it through to completed competition boat?

Just curious since this thread was so fast paced and now comparitively dead.
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I'm thinking the boat is being built :pop:
 
I hope so, I have read through this a few times. There is so much knowledge here and I can't wait to see the results or even testing of all that research and questioning that was done here.
 
Hi all!

Hi All ... miss me? :cheer:

Doncha just hate it when 'life' gets in the way of fun? I 'borrowed' a lot of time hanging out here and getting de-ignorantised, and it has been payback time. That said, I have been on a little more familiar ground finding out about races & date, crews, clothes, helmets, electronics ... all that mundane, necessary stuff, and ... I M-A-Y have a few more questions for y'all.

SmokeShow said:
Has a platform has been established for the venture yet? Motions put into place to see it through to completed competition boat?

Just curious since this thread was so fast paced and now comparitively dead.
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yeah, but some of the basis has changed. I'm not planning on racing in the states, other than maybe Bimini, or Miami-Key West, so the nature of the boat changed from 12m to 14m (and possibly 15m), and power may/may not still be in the 800-1000 range. More later.

parkland said:
I'm thinking the boat is being built
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Close. I have narrowed it to four builders: Kaama in Cali, Phantom & Sutphen in Florida and Victory Design in Italy. I should have their final proposals in a week or two, but it is not a straight $$ jobbie. Their layup schedules, weight, how they want to handle tankage, etc. matters, too. (and how they like designing around my engine options.) It will be the same hull, but can be powered differently, depending on race class.

ChuMaDD said:
I hope so, I have read through this a few times. There is so much knowledge here and I can't wait to see the results or even testing of all that research and questioning that was done here.
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Yup, there is, there is, and I am delighted other folks can maybe use some of it, too.

OK ... questions ... :D

Y'all helped me figger out a couple of GOOD 1000± options: 'Cummins B' and IH530/DDA 40e.

What if I want MORE, BIGGER, LOUDER, MOREEEEEEE ...?

It's not an idle question, actually. Offshore racing is by class, defined by total displacement and post-race weight, so if you want to dominate, for example, C class, 13liters (Cummins B 1000hp), you put the boat on a diet, carry just as much fuel as you need and try to get as close to 10.000# (when done) as you can.

B Class 18liters, DDA-40e 1200hp ... 11.000#

A Class, 27liters ... the big boys, QSM, Cat C-13 ... and that us what I need some more brain pourings about.

Who can make bedplates?

I found six IFM V1308T2 v-8, 14.3 litre (mechanical) marine engines in Delaware, and several (incl 2 brand new) IFM 1306T2 IL-6 11.3 liter. The V-8 has always been a workboat engine, and is stock 738hp, but the 1306 was offered in a racing version at 1100hp, once upon a time.

The issue is, the racing 1306 was a 100hr engine, and the 1308 is the same design, with the same problem: weak crankcase.

With bedplates, these would be 100hp+/liter, 1000hr+ engines.

Where do I go to get a bedplate made: either milled or molded?

Glad to be back.

Bob
 
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