Building a Performance Marine Engines

For a 1000 HP dt360 or 466, I can't imagine how you'd spend 90k$ unless you gold plated it.

Building a dt466 to around 1000 HP should cost around 10 -15k$, and thats with hypermax parts.
I'm confident it could cost a LOT less, sourcing different parts from affordable places.

I told him 50 - 80k depending on what was asked for (turn key motor). More if he went to extreme side of things, but he would not need that. Gold plating would probably be some where around 1,000,000. based on price of gold. If you want just a stock engine you could probably buy one for $2000. If he does all the assembling/engineering, thinking stuff I'm sure we can do the parts for less.

Most tractor/trucks do not even go 100 hrs for a matenance schedule. They are lucky to have 1-2 hours between matenance at that hp.

NoLimitMFG


I sure do not want to be responsible for a stranded boat out on the sea.
 
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Building a dt466 to around 1000 HP should cost around 10 -15k$, and thats with hypermax parts.
I'm confident it could cost a LOT less, sourcing different parts from affordable places.

A good fuel system is going to be near 10k.


Most tractor/trucks do not even go 100 hrs for a matenance schedule. They are lucky to have 1-2 hours between matenance at that hp.

1 hour would be around 250 hooks. That's what some are failing to wrap their head around. This application is talking the equivalent of 1000-1500 hooks without time to cool down and no land in sight. It's gonna be expensive because it needs to be bullet proof. Certain aspects of it need to be built equivalent to that of a heavy DSS.
 
Where can I read more about these 900hp 5.9L mil. engines that run for hours & hours continuously at peak power/WOT?!?!
 
Eric 'got it.'

It took a while, as we talked for a couple of hours, and he wore me out with questions I had not thought about on performance, economy, etc.

I have NO ISSUE with his 'eyeball' price, at all.
 
Where can I read more about these 900hp 5.9L mil. engines that run for hours & hours continuously at peak power/WOT?!?!

While every engine maker has 'Military' engines, mostly they are different part numbers, and on a GSA schedule. There are a few re-man, specialty suppliers for that market, too, and Innovation is one, and they are a collaboration between DOD, and Cummins, and LSM is involved too.

What makes Innovation special is they start with CGI blocks (Cummins license) and a Cummins OE crank. Most of the rest of the components are off the shelf, but not all, and their black boxes are proprietary with both Bosch and Cummins support.

You cannot buy an Innovation engine. DoD has to kiss the sale, and they ain't gonna do it.

There is nothing particularly special abt what Innovation does, but they do it RIGHT. Innovation are my heroes.
 
Eric 'got it.'

It took a while, as we talked for a couple of hours, and he wore me out with questions I had not thought about on performance, economy, etc.

I have NO ISSUE with his 'eyeball' price, at all.



I figured he had got it, I guess I was just going a little further on what he said.



Someone, somewhere mentioned using a Hyper block. I assume they got those straightened out? I was standing about 20 feet from a early hyper block when it split on the first hook. Complete Hyper bolt in and go engine package.
 
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My suspicion is (based on little data and fewer facts, admittedly) that it is about a wash on power and fuel economy running a 360 at 3300 on 3Bar & 18:1 and an 8.7 at 3000, 15-16:1 and 1½-2Bar. If that is the case (and since TBO reliability of either pump engine is not an issue), the lighter-weight choice would usually carry a slight preference, but then, again a 12ga can do anything a 20ga can do, and do it better. In the IH realm, there is just not that much weight difference between a DT360 5.9L and a DT530 8.7L ... #500, the pair?

I'm not there yet, but because of you and others, I am a lot less ignorant.

Thanks!

Well, many many comments, but I think that if you think the "big vs small" engine choices will be a wash, I have a vote you should go with the larger then. Maybe some of those steel crown pistons. :)
I think I may not have fully understood you're goal/ budget till now, but that is the great part about the internet, lol.
The fact that the DT engines have a rather large sled pulling following, could make them a really good platform for performance building.

Let me ask you one question; with the surface piercing propellor system; do you know what the actual output is once on plane?

Because we keep discussing "800 hp engine" or "1000 hp engine", but what will it really take?
If it takes 700 HP to get on plane, but only 500 HP to drive at speed, maybe you don't need as much as you thought?
Maybe you only need an engine that can put out peak 1000 HP for 30 seconds, and sustain 600 HP constant? That would be a really different build compared to an engine build for 1000 HP 100% duty.

And then, depending on the transmission you go with, that changes everything again, lol.
 
I told him 50 - 80k depending on what was asked for (turn key motor). More if he went to extreme side of things, but he would not need that. Gold plating would probably be some where around 1,000,000. based on price of gold. If you want just a stock engine you could probably buy one for $2000. If he does all the assembling/engineering, thinking stuff I'm sure we can do the parts for less.

Most tractor/trucks do not even go 100 hrs for a matenance schedule. They are lucky to have 1-2 hours between matenance at that hp.

NoLimitMFG


I sure do not want to be responsible for a stranded boat out on the sea.



Ahh, that makes sense.
It was my fault, I sort of misunderstood his goals a bit.
I would not expect a turn key engineered race engine to be as cheap as I stated earlier. :bang
 
... I think I may not have fully understood you're goal/ budget till now, but that is the great part about the internet, lol.

The Syndicate of which I am a member, wants to get into Endurance & Marathon Racing in Europe, and they want to enter large, with a handful of World Records in events that make ordinary people say (both):
- Is they NUTS?
- Yep, they got a pair. Big ones. Brass ones. Big Brass Ones.

In truth, there are only two events where some Coast Guard does not have the duty to retrieve people afflicted with 'bad luck,' but if you build the boat for those two events, you have build the perfect boat for the rest of them, too: stronger, tougher, seasoned, proved. A bulletproof engine is not a disadvantage running from Dover to Calais, but part of it is psychology, too, of course: when folks see Teal entered, then their mind shifts to 'OK, I guess we're running for 2nd place.'

The difference in build cost between the two models is a rounding error.[/QUOTE]

Let me ask you one question; with the surface piercing propellor system; do you know what the actual output is once on plane?

yeah, there are torque sensors around, and when we will be dialing the boat it, building the performance matrix, we'll use them and full engine-reporting electronics, but the boat will run on pyrometers, boost gauges and idiot lights.

Because we keep discussing "800 hp engine" or "1000 hp engine", but what will it really take?
If it takes 700 HP to get on plane, but only 500 HP to drive at speed, maybe you don't need as much as you thought?
Maybe you only need an engine that can put out peak 1000 HP for 30 seconds, and sustain 600 HP constant? That would be a really different build compared to an engine build for 1000 HP 100% duty.

Are you Eric Staab's alter-ego and question-feeder?? Good question, with the answer being 'depending' (of course.) And there are two legit answers.

- In an A-B race, of modest length, regardless of sea condition, you want every drop of horsepower the wheels can handle ... but like racing any-where, any-thing else, sometimes there is a 'sweet spot' where more turns gain you nothing, and may, in fact slow you down. 700hp-ish is a good number.

- In a long distance run, once you find the pace you want, 'there' is there: 4-500hp, maybe less. There is where the 2+ gallons/mile comes into play. If the seas are reasonable, it is boring duty.

And then, depending on the transmission you go with, that changes everything again, lol.

yep, another set of compromises that have to be finessed.
 
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The Syndicate of which I am a member, wants to get into Endurance & Marathon Racing in Europe, and they want to enter large, with a handful of World Records in events that make ordinary people say (both):
- Is they NUTS?
- Yep, they got a pair. Big ones. Brass ones. Big Brass Ones.

In truth, there are only two events where some Coast Guard does not have the duty to retrieve people afflicted with 'bad luck,' but if you build the boat for those two events, you have build the perfect boat for the rest of them, too: stronger, tougher, seasoned, proved. A bulletproof engine is not a disadvantage running from Dover to Calais, but part of it is psychology, too, of course: when folks see Teal entered, then their mind shifts to 'OK, I guess we're running for 2nd place.'

The difference in build cost between the two models is a rounding error.



yeah, there are torque sensors around, and when we will be dialing the boat it, building the performance matrix, we'll use them and full engine-reporting electronics, but the boat will run on pyrometers, boost gauges and idiot lights.



Are you Eric Staab's alter-ego and question-feeder?? Good question, with the answer being 'depending' (of course.) And there are two legit answers.

- In an A-B race, of modest length, regardless of sea condition, you want every drop of horsepower the wheels can handle ... but like racing any-where, any-thing else, sometimes there is a 'sweet spot' where more turns gain you nothing, and may, in fact slow you down. 700hp-ish is a good number.

- In a long distance run, once you find the pace you want, 'there' is there: 4-500hp, maybe less. There is where the 2+ gallons/mile comes into play. If the seas are reasonable, it is boring duty.



yep, another set of compromises that have to be finessed.


Well, I think most diesel engines have the lowest brake specific fuel consumption around 1700 RPM, so I think that one goal has to be to be able to have a gear to be able to run that RPM range, for eco-racing.

So you need to have an "eco mode", a "race mode", and possibly a "Rage mode", where things might get pushed passed the limit, but you want to go "all or nothing."

I think whatever engine you go with, you really owe it to you're self to incorporate a VVT turbo in the mix. Even if the only input is the manual knob on the dash, better than nothing.

I'm not as smart as anyone else here I don't think, just found this thread interesting, so thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
 
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At certain point number cruching is only going to go so far. Real data showing what you really need will come after you have taken the boat out and beat on it to see what its going to do. If you end up needed less power, cool stay off the go fast stick unless its A-B. Or scale down the fuel/air. Needing more after its all said and done is what I am sensing you don't want to happen
 
At certain point number cruching is only going to go so far. Real data showing what you really need will come after you have taken the boat out and beat on it to see what its going to do. If you end up needed less power, cool stay off the go fast stick unless its A-B. Or scale down the fuel/air. Needing more after its all said and done is what I am sensing you don't want to happen


I'm "Co-sensing" the same, haha.

I think it will end up just like a truck; no matter what power you get, theres always something on the menu to get a little more.
 
Here are the maxxforce 10 specs:

MaxxForce 10: Same displacement as MaxxForce 9, with horsepower ranging from 310–350 hp (230–260 kW). This engine features stronger components, such as steel-crowned two-piece pistons, strengthened engine block, and a titanium turbocharger turbine to cope with the extra power and stress of severe-service and heavy-duty applications. [4]

Engine Type: Diesel, 4-Cycle
Configuration: Inline 6-Cylinder
Displacement: 9.3 L (570 cu. in.)
Bore & Stroke: 4.59 in. & 5.75 in. (11.7 cm & 14.6 cm)
Compression Ratio: 17.2:1
Aspiration: Two-Stage Turbochargers, Intercooler & Aftercooler
Combustion System: Direct Injection
Engine Lubrication: 30 Quarts (28 L)
Total Engine Weight (Dry): 1,425 lbs. (646 kg)
Dimensions: L 45 in. x W 42 in. x H 47 in. (L 114 cm x W 107 cm x H 119 cm)
Valves: 4 Valves per Cylinder
B50 Design Life: 550,000 mi (885,139 km)


So now the question,
Can a p-pump be attached, and can the 24v head possibly be utilized with old school mechanical injectors?
Maybe an old 12v head will bolt on the block?
I don't know, thats over my head.

But for the weight, thats a LOT of engine.
I would have to think the 24v head would flow air better at high RPM's, but maybe the old 12v head is more stout?
I don't know the answers to any of this.
I've heard that a lot of 466 stuff can be interchanged among years though.
 
...
So you need to have an "eco mode", a "race mode", and possibly a "Rage mode", where things might get pushed passed the limit, but you want to go "all or nothing."

Yep, three motors in one!

If this runs like plan, I 'spect this project will last abt three years, tops, before pump engines are outlawed. The world is going green, you see, and UIM is biased against run-what-you-brung. two-fer.

I think whatever engine you go with, you really owe it to you're self to incorporate a VVT turbo in the mix. Even if the only input is the manual knob on the dash, better than nothing.

Yeah, that is pretty cool. I have a call into him. 'Addressable Turbos' who woulda thunk it? Seas pretty flat ... how about some 4 Bar background music.
 
... If you end up needed less power, cool stay off the go fast stick unless its A-B. Or scale down the fuel/air. Needing more after its all said and done is what I am sensing you don't want to happen

ding-ding-ding ... we have a winner!

I NEED 750-800 ponies, with the torque curve shifted to the right a bit, and while I don't have to use them all of the time, flogging them's the plan ... and it's sweet to be able to change props and play a 110mph game, occasionally.

CompD has been especially good at helping me refine & define needs and wants.

Thanks, you!
 
Ahh, that makes sense.
It was my fault, I sort of misunderstood his goals a bit.
I would not expect a turn key engineered race engine to be as cheap as I stated earlier.

A good example of that is fasteners. IH fasteners are, I'm sure, perfectly competent to hold the head plumb & flat, even exceeding their design specs.

Good. Sell them to the scrap hauler for 11¢/lb and credit my account.
We're going with ARP for a couple of thou$and, and two days of labour to in$tall them per ATP $pec.

Push rods? ... Call Bend Oregon.

Add a set of motor mounts mid-block: we ♥ stiff.

Everything has a comma.
's'ok,
not being able to respond to the Green Flag is a lot more costly.
 
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Yeah, that is pretty cool. I have a call into him. 'Addressable Turbos' who woulda thunk it? Seas pretty flat ... how about some 4 Bar background music.


"addressable turbo", I like it.

Wouldn't have the electronic performance as a normal electric engine would, but it would be far better than swapping turbo's.

That will be perfect, cause when in "eco mode" around 1600 RPM, you can lay the boost and fuel to her, and make big power.
If the turbo system was sized to do that, you'd waste a bunch of energy when you're running 3800 RPM racing hard.
 
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