CR melted piston discussion, why, why not, and for the love of god how not to..

The red bottle always gets the "what you running in there"......at pulls I fill it 1/2 full of ice then water and some pump lube and just before circulate through the pump and tank, gets everything good and cold. Then not only water injection but good and cold water injection.

3 nozzles spread out across the intake manifold (This is KEY....water don't flow around corners, if you put it all in the horn your only cooling the middle cylinders). 1 nozzle after the intercooler. All 800-1000 psi
It simply works.
This is the way to do it, any of the other systems with them crappy little pumps don't cut it.


waterinjection008.jpg
[/IMG]
 
Joesixpack said:
The red bottle always gets the "what you running in there"......at pulls I fill it 1/2 full of ice then water and some pump lube and just before circulate through the pump and tank, gets everything good and cold. Then not only water injection but good and cold water injection.

3 nozzles spread out across the intake manifold (This is KEY....water don't flow around corners, if you put it all in the horn your only cooling the middle cylinders). 1 nozzle after the intercooler. All 800-1000 psi
It simply works.
This is the way to do it, any of the other systems with them crappy little pumps don't cut it.


waterinjection008.jpg
[/IMG]
Click to expand...

What kind of pump is that ?Looks like a starter motor!
 
Begle1 said:
How many degrees of timing advance are we talking about with these programmers? Are those numbers known or classified?


Is that something that can be read with a scan tool or would you need an oscilloscope on a dyno?
Click to expand...
I don't know and have talked to anyone that can tell me the timing curve on a CR other than the timing is cut back at the lower rpms and advanced at the upper. "One of the reasons CRs run quieter."
Billy
 
homewrecker said:
What kind of pump is that ?Looks like a starter motor!
Click to expand...

Its a Haldex pump, with kind of what looks like a starter size motor, 500-3000 psi.

It has a internal relief that you can set to what ever pressure and you could use solinoids and rig stages if you wanted.

I took one spring out and ran it as low as 200 psi like the Snow and other kits..........:hehe: don't think it does a thing at that low of pressure. At least not at that 800hp and up.
 
Piston crosscut

Here's something I'd like to add to the discussion. This is the 04.5+ piston used with the J-jet cooling nozzles.
 
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The adrenaline for 98.5-02 on VP44 fueled trucks can bump timing to 26.5-27*

I have no idea on a common rail, but I bet a PM to Quad at Quadzilla will let you know how far he advances CR's. I honestly don't think initial injection timing is higher on Common Rails than it is on P-Pumped trucks. I could see average timing being higher since a Common Rail could possibly inject fuel faster than a P-Pump thus higher average timing but not higher initial injection timing.
 
Snedge said:
Here's something I'd like to add to the discussion. This is the 04.5+ piston used with the J-jet cooling nozzles.
Click to expand...


I posted the same in another thread, got a 03-04 piston you can cut up? Think it will be pretty easy to see there is a lot more meat where it takes the heat.
 
Joesixpack said:
I posted the same in another thread, got a 03-04 piston you can cut up? Think it will be pretty easy to see there is a lot more meat where it takes the heat.
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Right. I don't have one cut up, but I do know it's not hollow.:doh:
 
Most of the 03's also have the cooling passages, thats the reason i went with VP pistons on the last build, but those didnt work out so well either due to the melt action. I think if I had done the bowls different it might have held up better.
 
Melted Piston

Ad me to the unfortunate list,

Truck is 06 w/ DDP 200's, twin Cp3's 85% and stock, Modded rail and tubes, F1 Cam and valve springs, HTT 66/13 over S480, Smarty tnt-r was on 8,2 timing, default rail pressure, TST on 3/1, MP-8 about 75%. Has banks intercooler and plumbing with stock intake on head.

Melted #6 piston sled pulling, died at the end of track and pucked a lot of coolant or overflow bottle. I don't know for sure what egt's were but would expect 1400-1500 at the end of track which is much less than my old vp truck ran.

Hope this helps us all figure out how to build these engines.
 
I burnt #5 running a edge hot stacked with bullydog down loader. It had a really bad timing rattle, but I chose to ignore it. But now with the built motor I am running Smarty TNT/R- MP8 and see EGT around 1500-1600 at the end of a sled pull. But with my Scheid built motor they cut the piston bowls at a angle, why I am not sure. So I am not sure if that helps with the cooling or spray pattern or what.

There are so many varibles that can cause these CR motors to do a lot of weird things, specially when pulling or drag racing. Throttle position, intake temp, engine temp, boost, rpm, wheel speed, tranny output speed, all these things are monitored and can cause changes in timing, fueling and such all with the ECM. So until somebody can give us a program that we can set given values, i.e. timing, duration, pressure that will stay a given set point, we will have to keep doing what we have been doing.
 
24VChevy said:
I have run my CR race motor in my 1990 truck for three seasons and for some reason I have never had a pistion issue. This truck is not a street truck and sees only track and dyno time. The motor is a 03 250 hp and for the first season had the plastic spray jets. I installed the blockers and added the "j" jet this year. I have always had the rail and the timing jacked up. Spray water only with shots for NOS. I run a fairly small turbo set up compaired to most. Only see 80 psi of boost- 100 drive psi. I have never run a TST on it I will be next weeked to see what difference it makes. I also run a rail cap so who knows how high the pressure really is. Never had a injector issue to date. I have bent connecting rods, push rods, lossened valve seats, cracked cylinder bores and ate transmissions like crazy (till now). EGTS (all six) never read below 1600*f on a pass. Intake air temp is always 120-130*f. I think Marco said it best. HEAT/TIME to cool. Too much duration may cause the crown to be heated all the way down to BDC after the power stroke. Air to fuel ratio and cooling time play a big part. The newer trucks have that post injection event I think that is what is killing most 4.5+ engines.


I think a poll of failures with what engine and mods and what where you doing when it melted would be a great idea.

Just my thoughts.

Malcolm
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Bingo! its chasing the piston with fuel and it basically lays on top of it and slowly burns. Duramax guys run into this when running too high of pw for the main injection event, get some 20% over nozzles, shorten up the injection and lower the EGTs by a mile.

if the 6.4 ford guys cant shut off the multiple post-injections i think they will be having piston problems too.

$.02
 
snoxracer said:
I burnt #5 running a edge hot stacked with bullydog down loader. It had a really bad timing rattle, but I chose to ignore it. But now with the built motor I am running Smarty TNT/R- MP8 and see EGT around 1500-1600 at the end of a sled pull. But with my Scheid built motor they cut the piston bowls at a angle, why I am not sure. So I am not sure if that helps with the cooling or spray pattern or what.

There are so many varibles that can cause these CR motors to do a lot of weird things, specially when pulling or drag racing. Throttle position, intake temp, engine temp, boost, rpm, wheel speed, tranny output speed, all these things are monitored and can cause changes in timing, fueling and such all with the ECM. So until somebody can give us a program that we can set given values, i.e. timing, duration, pressure that will stay a given set point, we will have to keep doing what we have been doing.
Click to expand...

Its out there, Ive seen it, used it, seen engineers use it and do some cool things, you just cant have it. Cummins top secret...
 
Joesixpack said:
Its a Haldex pump, with kind of what looks like a starter size motor, 500-3000 psi.

It has a internal relief that you can set to what ever pressure and you could use solinoids and rig stages if you wanted.

I took one spring out and ran it as low as 200 psi like the Snow and other kits..........:hehe: don't think it does a thing at that low of pressure. At least not at that 800hp and up.
Click to expand...


Which haldex pump is that?
 
Joesixpack said:
Its a Haldex pump, with kind of what looks like a starter size motor, 500-3000 psi.

It has a internal relief that you can set to what ever pressure and you could use solinoids and rig stages if you wanted.

I took one spring out and ran it as low as 200 psi like the Snow and other kits..........:hehe: don't think it does a thing at that low of pressure. At least not at that 800hp and up.
Click to expand...

The problem I have with my Haldex is when it comes on it sucks all of the voltage off everything. And since injectors need voltage to run that kind of creates a issue. I need about a 300 amp alt to run it and the engine at the same time. :bang
 
Purehybrid said:
Its out there, Ive seen it, used it, seen engineers use it and do some cool things, you just cant have it. Cummins top secret...
Click to expand...

So how were you able to use it? We've heard that story alot, somebody has it but nobody can find it?:bang
 
bsmith said:
Which haldex pump is that?
Click to expand...

It specs out as 3.6 gal/min 0 psi, 1 gal/min 2500 psi, adjustable internal relief 500psi to 3000 psi. #8orb inlet #6orb outlet.

The adjustable relief is nice, you can come close with your nozzles, and vary the pressure to were you want it.
It maintains that exact pressure if you have 1 nozzle spraying or 5.


bdp said:
The problem I have with my Haldex is when it comes on it sucks all of the voltage off everything. And since injectors need voltage to run that kind of creates a issue. I need about a 300 amp alt to run it and the engine at the same time. :bang
Click to expand...

Are you running 1 battery?
I'm not having any trouble running it at all, 2 batterys, stock alternator. It don't seem to labor much at all between 800 and 1000psi.......eats the juice at 2500 though.
 
Smokem said:
Waiting on some piston blueprints, I am thinking this problem can be solved by altering the spray pattern to lower the piston surface temperature.
Click to expand...


I think that piston would survive better if the nozzle was a 7 or 8 hole, same angle for a non re-entry bowl. Size the holes for no more than 20,000 and throw the pressure box in the garbage.

IMO to big of a hole in the 5 is spraying to far out, pressure is spraying to fine and lighting off too hard.
 
well im going to run 03-04 pistons with 03-04 tips but leaving my 06 ecm, we have a firm belief that this will work out great.
 
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