Head sealing issues.

OT-OF-Here said:
Also, anyone using their intake (found on their web site),... looks strange.

:
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The "intake" on the Keating website is a guillotine style air shutoff.
 
OT-OF-Here said:
I noticed that

www.keatingmachine.com


has a special performace grade head gasket. Is it really worth the big money?? Anyone using it that can give a testimony?

Also, anyone using their intake (found on their web site),... looks strange.

2nd question, ..... how much can you safely trim a stock head for true-up if you're running a Helix 2 cam??

Tks. :tree:
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that's a fire ring setup for a 1st or 2nd gen. your factory gasket is an MLS (multi-layer steel) gasket that is very strong. you should ALWAYS check piston-to-valve clearance! whoever cut the cam for you should be able to give you a good ballpark, but there are a lot of variables. manufacturer's tolerance in the timing gears, etc.

that intake is a guillotine type emergency shutdown valve to prevent engine runaway
 
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i've been using a firering and a multilayer head gasket and no probs. Its better to have the new age 625 head studs, but Comp4somethingorother sold the last set from under me that i had ordered for the last month, but i guess thats par for the course. Multilayer with firering will be the answer if the motor has to come out, if not, new age 625 studs should do the trick, well for at least 1200 plus HP.
 
Reb.B said:
i've been using a firering and a multilayer head gasket and no probs. Its better to have the new age 625 head studs, but Comp4somethingorother sold the last set from under me that i had ordered for the last month, but i guess thats par for the course. Multilayer with firering will be the answer if the motor has to come out, if not, new age 625 studs should do the trick, well for at least 1200 plus HP.
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hey Reb, good to see you on the board!!!! :rockwoot:
 
Ive got stainless wire O rings in my block that have been there for years and they are still there with a stock head gasket. The secret is all of the crazy glue in there too.
 
What I want to know is, why keep re-torqueing by certain people's advice if after say the last two times the lines kept matching up?
I personally have re-torqued my head w/o-rings about 12 times that I can count and only in the last 2-4 re-torques the line I made has not moved any tighter. Would those of you with more experience than me say I could ease up on the re-torqueing or is it a good habit to keep doing it after say every 5 or so sled pulls?? I mean you can only suck that o-ring into the HG so much and I would think that constantly re-torqueing with the lines matching up each time is doing nothing.

Thanks, Joe
 
head sealing issues

Jetpilot said:
Don't use copper wire, its too soft.... A semi-hard to hard stainless steel wire works the best for both copper and OEM style headgaskets. Getting the head and block is critical to a good seal. Another issue is not using enough or proper lube on the studs, nuts, and washers when using studs. Take you time with studs and torque slowly in the proper sequence. Also when doing a retorque break the nut loose and apply lube to the nut, washer and stud each and every time.
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Jetpilot,
When you do the retorque, Can you start at 110 & work your way from there?

Thank You,
Wayne
 
head sealing issues

RedPuller said:
What I want to know is, why keep re-torqueing by certain people's advice if after say the last two times the lines kept matching up?
I personally have re-torqued my head w/o-rings about 12 times that I can count and only in the last 2-4 re-torques the line I made has not moved any tighter. Would those of you with more experience than me say I could ease up on the re-torqueing or is it a good habit to keep doing it after say every 5 or so sled pulls?? I mean you can only suck that o-ring into the HG so much and I would think that constantly re-torqueing with the lines matching up each time is doing nothing.

Thanks, Joe
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Joe ,

That is a good point to consider:thankyou2:

Does the head "settle" that much after the second or third retorque?

Thanks,
Wayne
 
WAYNES WORLD said:
Does the head "settle" that much after the second or third retorque?

Thanks,
Wayne
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I noticed my head "settling" into the new HG still after like 7 re-torques with the nuts tightening down even more past the lines I made. But why would one have to continue re-torquing when every time after so many the nut lines just go right back to where they were?? Hopefully someone can give a good explaination to this as it sure is a PITA to continuously re-torque over and over when you've done it over a dozen times.

Joe
 
My guess would be that after it quits moving, it's done retorquing. Any more retorques are worthless (except for the workout ;)).

brandon.
 
i have a quick question about this thred.

you guys here all talk about ringing the block and using a stock HG is this really that much better then say o-ringing the head and adding a marine gasket? Also ad 12mm studs to either. this would be on a DD weekend playtoy. pulls and drags and dynos
 
One reason is that its easier to sit the rings in the groves in the block, then to keep them stuck to the head while you drop it down.
Two, you are hardcore if you cut the block.:evil
 
As of a while back ('05 I think), there's no difference between the stock and marine gaskets any more. They all have the wider rings of silicone embedded.

branodn.
 
Well, I retorqued my head tonight for the first time in 3 years. Patty Haisley tole me to do it about 10 times in a conversation at Indy. Now I remember why I havent done it more often. Every hole that the bolt was not under the valve covers was either full of burnt oil or rust. Not just a little rust, but pitted at the top just under the nut. The front passenger side one was the worst, I had to beat on it pretty good to get the washer to come off.
I couldnt find my 1/2 drive socket for studs, so I was using a 1/2-3/8 adapter,and snap-on rates it for 2000in/lbs, but it broke at 112.4 ft/lbs (1349in/lbs). I found a Ace hardware brand one in my box, and it held up just fine. :poke:
So retorque your head every so often to clean out the threads and get a fresh coat of grease to keep them in good shape.
 
the reason for the retorqe on the head with o-rings is because you are trying to push stainless steel o-ring into a stailess steel factory firering. If you don't make much boost then you won't lift the head much, but if you do make big boost then the head is constantly going up and down and it starts denting the factory firering more, so then you need to retorque and get it back to where it should be at. Like i always said, if the motor is coming out, then firering it and be done.
 
Reb.B said:
the reason for the retorqe on the head with o-rings is because you are trying to push stainless steel o-ring into a stailess steel factory firering. If you don't make much boost then you won't lift the head much, but if you do make big boost then the head is constantly going up and down and it starts denting the factory firering more, so then you need to retorque and get it back to where it should be at. Like i always said, if the motor is coming out, then firering it and be done.
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Good advice Reb, but what would you consider "big" boost numbers? Over 50psi??
Would you think that I should continue to re-torque my studs as many times as it has been done even though the lines made on the base of the nut and the nut itself have not moved tighter in the last 4 re-torques? Basically, once the head has "settled" after so many, is really necessary to keep it up every now and then? If so, what would be a good time separation to re-torque?
I just kind of see it to be pointless after so many re-torques to continue to re-torque.....I mean the head can only settle so much right?? Kind of like *bdh* after about 12 re-torques IMO.

Joe
 
very confusaled to sat the least

As usual there are a couple dozen answers to the original question that dont really answer much and a lot of confusion as to whats best copper or steel wire.

My biggest confusion is about what to use - stock, o-rings, or fire -rings or, given the opposing answers.

there is hardly a single diesel site wherein most will tell you the stock head gasket and retorqued stock bolts will hold 50-60 psi ( i can tell you my 400k headgasket with stock un-re-torqued bolts has survived 2 years of 50 psi truckpulling )

So why would one go to all the trouble to O-ring either the head or block if the common consensus is that the O-ring will only hold up to 60 psi and only after like a dozen retorques when the stock gasket n bolts apparrenlty will do the same?

Seems like a waste of time to me if thats the case?

Fire rings - same basic money but will hold what for psi - some have said only 70 or so psi?

What are the guys runnin for sealing the headgasket who are in excess of 70 + psi boost using to seal things up? wether daily driver or for strip/puller

thanx
Ken
 
seeker1056 said:
very confusaled to sat the least

As usual there are a couple dozen answers to the original question that dont really answer much and a lot of confusion as to whats best copper or steel wire.

My biggest confusion is about what to use - stock, o-rings, or fire -rings or, given the opposing answers.

there is hardly a single diesel site wherein most will tell you the stock head gasket and retorqued stock bolts will hold 50-60 psi ( i can tell you my 400k headgasket with stock un-re-torqued bolts has survived 2 years of 50 psi truckpulling )

So why would one go to all the trouble to O-ring either the head or block if the common consensus is that the O-ring will only hold up to 60 psi and only after like a dozen retorques when the stock gasket n bolts apparrenlty will do the same?

Seems like a waste of time to me if thats the case?

Fire rings - same basic money but will hold what for psi - some have said only 70 or so psi?

What are the guys runnin for sealing the headgasket who are in excess of 70 + psi boost using to seal things up? wether daily driver or for strip/puller

thanx
Ken
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Boost is only a portion of the equation...... The real culprit is cylinder pressure and there are many variables that contribute to it. That being said O-rings done right will hold in excess of 90 PSI and do NOT require a dozen retorques. Normally I torque in sequence down to 115# start truck and let warm up, shut down and leave hood shut for a couple hours. Then I torque to 125#. After this I typically do 1 retorque at 125# a week or so later after the initial torquing sequence. They really shouldn't need to be done over and over. This setup has held over 900 RWHP on my old truck.

Doug
 
So if your retorquing the original head bolts is it better to remove them 1 at a time lube and refit or just mark the heads and retorque? would you do this in sequence (as per manual) or use the line method mentioned earlier?
 
I always retorque by doing one at a time using the cummins sequence. I break the nut loose and apply ARP moly lube to the stud, washer, and nut. Then torque using a good accurate torque wrench, be sure that you use a smooth solid motion until it reaches torque.

Doug
 
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