Holset Turbos on LB7's

[Noreaster]

yeah I have 15,000 miles on it, dick.

ben

alittle sarcasm never hurts, thought I read the other day that it wasn't running

 

[NeilLB7]

I know some do consider this a waste of time. And I'm am listening to the comments with great regard. But I did send all the engine data and maps etc I could get my hands on for the Duramax to an engineer at Holset. He is going to look at it and tell me what he thinks. We talked and I understand they might not recommend anything at all. But they did want to look at the data and see what they came up with just for kicks. Should be interesting.

 

[Cummins Driver]

Actually, the HE351cw would probably be the best of the holsets. It came stock on the 04.5 and up 5.9 CR dodges. Its a 60mm turbo with great spoolup, and it flows better than an HX40 on the compressor side. The exhaust side is smaller, but it is a very durable turbo that flows pretty well and will make some power.

 

[duratothemax]

It came stock on the 04.5 and up 5.9 CR dodges.

so its probably going to be too small for a duramax... stock Duramax heads flow a bazillion times better than stock CTD heads; you cant say "well X turbo works great on a dodge, lets throw it on a dmax"

not to mention you are feeding an extra 43 cubic inches of displacement..

Its a 60mm turbo with great spoolup,

with a good tune a stock LB7 turbo has instant spoolup, even a little quicker than a variable vane turbo IMO.

IThe exhaust side is smaller,.

so the EGT's are going to be higher than with a stock LB7 turbo?

but it is a very durable turbo that flows pretty well

so is/does the stock LB7 turbo

and will make some power.

how is the original poster expecting to see an increase in power when he refuses to add any "chips" or "tuners"?


ben

 

[Cummins Driver]

so its probably going to be too small for a duramax... stock Duramax heads flow a bazillion times better than stock CTD heads; you cant say "well X turbo works great on a dodge, lets throw it on a dmax"

not to mention you are feeding an extra 43 cubic inches of displacement..




with a good tune a stock LB7 turbo has instant spoolup, even a little quicker than a variable vane turbo IMO.



so the EGT's are going to be higher than with a stock LB7 turbo?



so is/does the stock LB7 turbo



how is the original poster expecting to see an increase in power when he refuses to add any "chips" or "tuners"?


ben

I AM JUST HELPING HIM WITH INFORMATION ON HOLSET TURBOS!!!

Please tell me where i reccomended that he pull the stock turbo off his D-Max and put a Holset turbo on it?!?! He asked for opinions on which would be the best, and I told him which holset turbo i thought would be the best if he is going to do it.

A stock HE351cw holset on a common rail dodge has made over 540hp fuel only. When you factor in the fact that the duramax heads flow better, and it has a bigger displacement to take in more air, then yes, I think it would work quite well on a duramax. Better than the stock turbo, I dont know, but I dont think it would provide any driveability problems if it was set up right. Oh, and A cummins only has ONE head. Not "heads"

As for the exhaust housing being smaller. I was talking about in relation to a 16cm HX40 exhaust housing. The HE351cw has a 4 inch outlet on it, so im willing to bet it flows as good as the exhaust housing on the stock LB7 turbo. The LB7 turbo is a 3 inch outlet, right?

The stock LB7 turbo is durable up to 28psi or so. I hear that they detonate above 30psi pretty quick. The HE351cw will make 40psi all day long and not think twice about it.

I also never said he would see an increase in power. I just said that the turbo would support some decent power if he ever wanted to go that way with it.

Like I said, if i had a duramax I wouldnt do this, but im just helping him with which turbo would be best if HE does it.

Going by your arguments-

Why on earth would anyone put an aurora 5k on a duramax? It spools slow, wont tow well at all, and wont be nearly as good as the stock turbo for daily driving. If the duramax has to have such a precise air/fuel ratio to run well, then a person would think the aurora 5k would be horrible. Yet people love them and run them all the time. Its all in what you want to do. I never reccomended for him to do it, just told him what i thought would work best if he did.

A duramax isnt my thing anyways. The Cummins is where its at for me.

Eric

 

[NeilLB7]

how is the original poster expecting to see an increase in power when he refuses to add any "chips" or "tuners"?

I never said I "refuse" to add any tuners or chips. I think I said I didn't plan on doing that, nor did I want to. If I ended up having to do that...I would.

I'm pretty sure I said I didn't have to have additional power and didn't expect any additional power. By the same token I didn't anticipate or plan on going backwards. Equal to or better than.

I think CumminsDriver said "the exhaust side is smaller" in reference to the HX40, not the IHI. His statement doesn't imply that the HE351cw exhaust housing is smaller than the IHI RHG6's or that the EGT's would be higher as such. It could be the case...but he was comparing two Holsets. At least thats how I read it.

I'm just interested to see what Holset says. They might tell me to go fly a kite. There are LB7 kits using Garretts, ATS, S300's, modified IHI's etc. I'm still interested in a Holset. At least researching the idea seem fun! :Cheer:

 

[heybob]

Like malibu said...if you like to tinker with stuff, get EFI and spend your time running through that. I am an engineering student and some of the things I learned in my classes go hand in hand with some of the efi tables. Build and throw on a small tune and you will appreciate your stock IHI more.

I normally hit 33 psi daily with my stocker and it has held up well so far.

 

[59Dsul]

One thing I've always liked about CompD is the relative ability to talk about something outside the box and not be slammed for it. I say give it a try, what can it hurt? My personal opinion (as a guy who's owned all three major diesels) is to try a built HX50. I ran one on a 24 valve for years. It was a 68mm comp wheel (smaller may work better) with a very tight Schwitzer housing on the rear for spoolup. It had a t3 inlet so a used ATS pedestal could be used; it spooled much better than a stock HX40 I previouly ran. It was put together by Scheid's and took a beating very well. Plus the built Holsets can be had fairly cheap as everyone looks for an S400 or GT42 variant
andy

 

[NeilLB7]

My office is about 10 blocks from Scheids. I've done business with them for years...but have not mentioned this yet. I plan to stop in sometime and at least see what they say. I usually don't talk about the Duramax much when I'm in there however. Now I've got a reason.

Like I said...I may well end up down the electronic path. I can do that. I've messed with Cummins and Cat software on laptops and know the power of such. But not before I've exhausted my original idea.

And if it seems like a "just because" type of thing, I guess it probably is. Just not to me .

59Dsul...like hearing of a T3 housing for the H50. Heard it before, but twice is nice. If I could only find a used ATS pedestal. I've had positive email conversations with them already.

 

[Brayden]

HX50 doesn't have enough exhaust housing choices for you.. pick an S300 or GT37/40 series cart which has plenty of options if you're going to a pedestal turbo.

JMO,

Brayden

 

[NeilLB7]

According to info I got while at Scheid today...they felt an HX50 could be put together for this engine with good results. However they said no exhaust housing is available for the needs of the engine or the flange I'm wanting. Like 59dsul said...they told me they would "build" any type of housing or flange I wanted. Probably $1500 for the components and the work. Turbo only.

But they did say that if a person were to go pretty high with fueling mods etc...expect the HX50 to break or come apart at some point.

Their recommendation, sort of, was to go with a kit like ATS for speed and cost. But they were willing to help.

Brayden...I sent an email to your site a week or so ago. I know your a busy person. I must make it to your shop. Do you allow walk in visitors?

 

[duratothemax]

Oh, and A cummins only has ONE head. Not "heads"

ok if you want to play that game then fine. Cummins made more than one ISB. So therefore there is more than one Cummins "head" in existence. If I said "duramax heads flow better than a cummins head" then thats obviously incorrect grammar because Im suggesting that dmax heads as a group flow better than one particular cummins head. The fact that a duramax has two heads per one engine and a cummins only has one is irrelevant. The fact is that there are millions of heads of EACH engine out there. If you have one duramax head sitting next to one cummins head, the duramax HEAD will flow better than the cummins HEAD. If you have 7 duramax heads sitting next to 7 cummins heads, the duramax HEADS flow better than the cummins HEADS.

see what I meant?

The stock LB7 turbo is durable up to 28psi or so. I hear that they detonate above 30psi pretty quick.

32 psi

The HE351cw will make 40psi all day long and not think twice about it..

why the heck is everyone so goo-goo for boost numbers and hung up on "whats the most psi I can make this X turbo". If the dmax IHI makes the same power at 30psi as the Holset does at 40psi, then who cares? With my old bigger single turbo, I trapped 107-108mph in a 7680lb truck. How much boost was I running? Like 35psi, and that was with the wastegate line clamped off.

Boost is also affected by how well the heads flow. Boost is more a measure of restriction. Because duramax headS flow better than cummins headS and has more displacment, you are going to see a lot less boost on a dmax.

I also never said he would see an increase in power. I just said that the turbo would support some decent power if he ever wanted to go that way with it.

yeah but power is NOT what hes after. He just wants "a holset turbo on his dmax". And Im saying he can save himself a boatload of time and money by just leaving the IHI on. Because if he does want power down the road, its a lot easier and cheaper just doing a tune with the stock turbo.

A stock HE351cw holset on a common rail dodge has made over 540hp fuel only

ok so a few guys have done it, so what. I can probably count the number of stock turbo'd FUEL ONLY NO WATER 500+rwhp CTD's on one hand. We can argue "well so and so did it" until we turn blue in the face, but the fact is that the duramax is WAYYY cheaper and easier than either the CTD or PSD to get to 500rwhp, and with a stock turbo.

It spools slow, wont tow well at all, and wont be nearly as good as the stock turbo for daily driving. If the duramax has to have such a precise air/fuel ratio to run well, then a person would think the aurora 5k would be horrible.

See thats the problem with forums. One person says "the A5k is slow and unstreetable" and then another person says that, and before long, EVERYONE's ""opinion"" of the A5k is "it spools slow and cant tow".
I have tuned an aurora 5000 and its perfectly streetable. My buddy tows his trailer (8,000-9,000lbs or so) with no issues at all.

ben

 

[Cummins Driver]

ok if you want to play that game then fine. Cummins made more than one ISB. So therefore there is more than one Cummins "head" in existence. If I said "duramax heads flow better than a cummins head" then thats obviously incorrect grammar because Im suggesting that dmax heads as a group flow better than one particular cummins head. The fact that a duramax has two heads per one engine and a cummins only has one is irrelevant. The fact is that there are millions of heads of EACH engine out there. If you have one duramax head sitting next to one cummins head, the duramax HEAD will flow better than the cummins HEAD. If you have 7 duramax heads sitting next to 7 cummins heads, the duramax HEADS flow better than the cummins HEADS.

see what I meant?

A single 5.9 cummins motor has ONE head. You notice i said "A cummins". That would be singular, as in talking about one 5.9 cummins motor, there for having a single head. Not heads.

why the heck is everyone so goo-goo for boost numbers and hung up on "whats the most psi I can make this X turbo". If the dmax IHI makes the same power at 30psi as the Holset does at 40psi, then who cares? With my old bigger single turbo, I trapped 107-108mph in a 7680lb truck. How much boost was I running? Like 35psi, and that was with the wastegate line clamped off.

Boost is also affected by how well the heads flow. Boost is more a measure of restriction. Because duramax headS flow better than cummins headS and has more displacment, you are going to see a lot less boost on a dmax.

I am not "goo-goo" for boost numbers. I put a bigger housing on my stock turbo to try and lower the boost. I will be getting a boost elbow/boost controller or building my own wastegate for my current HX40 soon to try and lower the boost a few PSI. I was getting at the reliability of the turbo. I was not talking about how more boost should be ran or is better. Just stating the turbo would handle it. Boost is a restriction just like you said and the less you can get by with, the better. A cummins motor in general will run more boost because the head doesent flow as well. It needs a little more of a shove to get it into the cylinder.

yeah but power is NOT what hes after. He just wants "a holset turbo on his dmax". And Im saying he can save himself a boatload of time and money by just leaving the IHI on. Because if he does want power down the road, its a lot easier and cheaper just doing a tune with the stock turbo.

I know power isnt what he is after. I simply stated IF he ever wanted to make some power, the turbo should support it well. And again, where did I say this was the cost efficient thing to do? I didnt, I just offered some info on holset turbos.

ok so a few guys have done it, so what. I can probably count the number of stock turbo'd FUEL ONLY NO WATER 500+rwhp CTD's on one hand. We can argue "well so and so did it" until we turn blue in the face, but the fact is that the duramax is WAYYY cheaper and easier than either the CTD or PSD to get to 500rwhp, and with a stock turbo.

If a few guys have done it, then why couldnt a few more? They could, its just the fact that you can buy a new aftermarket turbo for a cummins for $1200-1800 where its $2500+ for a duramax.

And lets not get into making power. The cummins wont sling its rods with 650hp like a d-max will. Yeah, there are some that hold up, but most wont be that lucky. Heck, half of em crack pistons with a mild tune.

Id say the d-max is cheaper to 500hp for the most part, but lets not get too carried away. I can build a 500hp 12 valve for around $1000-$1200. A D-max will be right around the same price.

See thats the problem with forums. One person says "the A5k is slow and unstreetable" and then another person says that, and before long, EVERYONE's ""opinion"" of the A5k is "it spools slow and cant tow".
I have tuned an aurora 5000 and its perfectly streetable. My buddy tows his trailer (8,000-9,000lbs or so) with no issues at all.

You can tow with almost any single turbo there is on a cummins, duramax, or powerstroke. You have to keep the RPM's up, and watch the EGT gauge hard, but it CAN be done. It wont be fun though. I dont base my opinions solely on internet forums. I have been around plenty of trucks and have a pretty good idea of how they act. You wont be towing at 1600rpms with that A5k like you could be with a stock turbo, or one that is just slightly larger. Put 14 or 15k lbs behind that truck, then take a truck with a stock turbo and some mild mods, and ill tell you in a hurry which one will tow better, especially on the hills.

 

[duratothemax]

A single 5.9 cummins motor has ONE head. You notice i said "A cummins". That would be singular, as in talking about one 5.9 cummins motor, there for having a single head. Not heads.

ok fine eric you win.

I was getting at the reliability of the turbo.

a stock IHI dmax turbo will handle 500rwhp reliably

A cummins motor in general will run more boost because the head doesent flow as well.

didnt I just say that?

I can build a 500hp 12 valve for around $1000-$1200. A D-max will be right around the same price.

Everyone loves the 12 valve because "ha ha you stupid computer controlled guys, I can turn my truck into a tire roasting 900hp beast with a screw driver and fisher price hammer. The 12 valve is free to mod." Blah blah blah. To get a 12 valve to the power level of a stock duramax still requires money. Sure you can go grind your own fuel plate, but everybody just brushes off/ignores the other things that have to go along with it. DV's, GSK (here let me guess, you're going to refute me because you can make a GSK with a washer, but the fact is a lot of people just buy the stupid kit), injectors, turbo) etc... And im not talking about "well I got my 1000 dollar figure because my buddy's uncle gave me a turbo for 38 cents, and I got free injectors with my happy meal at mcdonalds"

I suppose you factored in a TRANSMISSION to your "1000 dollar figure" 47re/rh, go make that hold 550+rwhp with boosted launches on those POS stock 'hard' parts. You guys need 4 grand alone in your trans to do what ours will hold stock [hard parts], so dont give me this silliness about our engine hard parts failing before yours do. I forgot, valve springs too, because you guys start to float valves at like 3700rpm. All the trucks have weaknesses.

1000 dollars out the door to make 500rwhp on a 12 valve. ha ha thats funny.

ben

 

[59Dsul]

It's been on there long time, but there's a hybrid hx50 off and 01 Cummins auto on HaisleyMachine.com . More than likely it's a t3 with the tight housing. Hx50's have gotten a rep for being weak in the shaft. It's actually the front cover that is the weakest part; it warps from getting too hot and binds the comp wheel. That's where matching the rear housing and not overspooling and/or external gating would be helpful. Good luck with your decision.
BTW, ATS pedestals can be picked up for about $500 used. If I knew I wasn't going to throw on a bigger charger for my 03, I'd sell you mine

 

[NeilLB7]

You both are very knowledgable on diesels...especially your respective favorite brands. This sport (or hobby like me) has great enthusiam and great trucks galore. When I first got my Dodge 2500 24 valve some time ago...I was dead set on the fact that the Cummins engine was king. But after seeing and being around some darn good Powerstrokes and Duramax trucks...I knew I was only 1/3 correct. They are all good to me. Each with its own uniqueness and character. As can be seen by my purchase of a LB7 Chevrolet.

This is just a thread I started on Holsets and LB7's. One of you has good knowledge of Holsets and the other of the Duramax's. I am using information from both.

I'd say we probably shouldn't even get into the technical differences in the types of engines. This is just a simple thread about me wanting to do something that might either be an interesting experiment that works or a completely dumb idea that throws money down the drain. As long as I know that...I'll be OK with the results.

 

[Cummins Driver]

Everyone loves the 12 valve because "ha ha you stupid computer controlled guys, I can turn my truck into a tire roasting 900hp beast with a screw driver and fisher price hammer. The 12 valve is free to mod." Blah blah blah. To get a 12 valve to the power level of a stock duramax still requires money. Sure you can go grind your own fuel plate, but everybody just brushes off/ignores the other things that have to go along with it. DV's, GSK (here let me guess, you're going to refute me because you can make a GSK with a washer, but the fact is a lot of people just buy the stupid kit), injectors, turbo) etc... And im not talking about "well I got my 1000 dollar figure because my buddy's uncle gave me a turbo for 38 cents, and I got free injectors with my happy meal at mcdonalds"

Yes, it does require money to get a stock 12 valve to the power level of a duramax, but if you factor in the cost of the trucks to start out with, that argument is not a good one:hehe:

You can grind the plate, stick in a 4k GSK, and a transgo shift kit for a grand total of $200 and run with a stock d-max. Thats a lot of money:bang

I suppose you factored in a TRANSMISSION to your "1000 dollar figure" 47re/rh, go make that hold 550+rwhp with boosted launches on those POS stock 'hard' parts. You guys need 4 grand alone in your trans to do what ours will hold stock [hard parts], so dont give me this silliness about our engine hard parts failing before yours do. I forgot, valve springs too, because you guys start to float valves at like 3700rpm. All the trucks have weaknesses.

1000 dollars out the door to make 500rwhp on a 12 valve. ha ha thats funny.

ben

Nope, thats strictly motor. Dont even try to pull the bull that a stock allison will hold 500hp either, because it wont! Heck they wont hold 400hp if you run it hard much. You have to build the tranny on either truck, so you might as well call that a toss up. Yeah, we need 4k in our transmissions, but the Allison does too if you dont want the junky thing limping everytime you hit a hill in overdrive with a load. At least the dodge transmissions man up and take it instead of making you pull over:bang Its hard to compare a transmission to motor hard parts too. Quite a difference there. Id rather build a transmission than an engine and im sure most people would. Oh, and valve springs, thats a whopping $110:hehe: And its not really all that important on a truck unless you are pulling and you need over 3500rpm. Most of the time you are far better shifting at 3200rpm or so than cranking it hard. Unless you have a pretty big turbo, you wont make much power up high. Let me show you my parts list so you will believe it:

$400- Used 60mm 3rd gen turbo or HX40 and a 4in downpipe
$400- New, New Era 435 injectors
$100- Delivery Valves- Local Machine shop cuts them for $100
$100- Timing
$125- 4k Governor Spring Kit
$110- Valve Springs
$000- Ground Plate
$50 - Intake

Thats a total of $1285, and you can probably get by with cheaper injectors if you wanted. Its more manual work than just putting someone elses tune into your ECM/TCM, but i enjoy working on my truck.

Most duramaxes have a hard time making 500hp with EFI, intake, exhaust, and pusher pump. Most i see are 475-480. Might cost a decent bit more than that to get that extra 20hp if you want to call it 500.

 

[Cummins Driver]

You both are very knowledgable on diesels...especially your respective favorite brands. This sport (or hobby like me) has great enthusiam and great trucks galore. When I first got my Dodge 2500 24 valve some time ago...I was dead set on the fact that the Cummins engine was king. But after seeing and being around some darn good Powerstrokes and Duramax trucks...I knew I was only 1/3 correct. They are all good to me. Each with its own uniqueness and character. As can be seen by my purchase of a LB7 Chevrolet.

This is just a thread I started on Holsets and LB7's. One of you has good knowledge of Holsets and the other of the Duramax's. I am using information from both.

I'd say we probably shouldn't even get into the technical differences in the types of engines. This is just a simple thread about me wanting to do something that might either be an interesting experiment that works or a completely dumb idea that throws money down the drain. As long as I know that...I'll be OK with the results.

You are right. They all have ups and downs. And i think me and duratothemax have taken your thread off topic, so im done arguing with him.

They do both have ups and downs, just depends on which one you would rather work on.

 

[malibu795]

all motor cost 120 buck and i will drop a 500rwhp tune in a dmax.......... tanny on the other hand.... ~2300 in parts, 200 for lift pump muffler delete and 40 buck for ABS custom intake :bang


as for the 5.9 only have a single head.. yes the automotive versions did... industrials 5.9 that we ran in the small boat had 3 head(s)


back to the turbo... best bet is to get a T4 housing T3 will work but it is kinda maked out with the displacment of the dmax

 

[duratothemax]

You are right. They all have ups and downs. And i think me and duratothemax have taken your thread off topic, so im done arguing with him.

They do both have ups and downs, just depends on which one you would rather work on.

yeah, you're done arguing because you think got the last word in.

everyone sell your POS dmax and buy a dodge.