it's scary what can be found in an ECM

Whatever makes you feel good, chief.

If you think you've shown or proved something and a few of your buddies agreeing with you makes you happy, so be it

Feed that ego.

I'm going to bed. Done arguing with a mule.
 
well with what you guys probably consider some messed up internet back and forth.....you and others have generated a unbelievable amount of great info.

I for one would like to thank all for their input. This is better than sitting in class at a diesel school.

I agree. I'm just really (Especially after reading this) starting with EFI. Never realized that it was so involved.

I see both points. I have one question though.

By closely matching Duty Cycle to fuel output (Be it pressure or volume) and causing the PID to correct less. Are you not only creating a smoother operation but also creating more flow. If its constantly under correcting and over correcting, isn't that decreasing potential?? (using the cruise control analogy) I'm trying to simplify my question as I'm not as familiar with all the terms involved. Hopefully I'm not too far off.
 
When I tune a Cummins, I just change all the numbers to red and cross my fingers. That and never leave my backside exposed to the engine bay. :rockwoot:

The only thing in this thread everyone can take away easily is 'it's quite easy to have a PID loop run a muck.' LOL Truer words...
 
well with what you guys probably consider some messed up internet back and forth.....you and others have generated a unbelievable amount of great info.

I for one would like to thank all for their input. This is better than sitting in class at a diesel school.
What he said^!!! I have learned a lot, even though I don't necessarily fully understand everything discussed in this thread.

I enjoyed reading this thread, thanks again guys!!:Cheer:.

I wonder how complicated the flight and weapons controls systems on an F-22 Raptor are....hmmm....
 
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The way I look at it is, the duty cycle map of the fca gets you close for a given fuel demand. The pid fine tunes this based on pressure feedback, If you change something in the fuel system, you need to make the map correct again. That way the pid will not be working as hard. When the pid is playing catch up because the fca table is not correct for the demand, the rail pressre will be unstable.
 
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I read halfway and skipped to here. Was there ever an agreement between the parties? I think the problem is in terminology. Please tell me what PID stands for. It is a value in a table correct, not a valve in the fuel rail?
 
Can I get a source for PID from the other party. I think it will be different than what is posted above. If both parties can agree on the correct source/definition, the argument will be settled. I doubt that will happen, though, as fundamental differences in understanding and terminology exist.
 
I wanted to post up what I found in a friends truck. It's a 06 mega cab he just bought. Said it ran great and has lots of power. I showed the tune to others who agreed something was definitely done to the truck. The dealer nor the new owner have a clue what it could have been though

I'm not pointing at any tuners out there, only wanting to show why when we run some programming, it can help to ruin, injectors and/or melt down a truck.

This is just the fuel psi table. Had the stock limiters not been in place, it wouldn't have taken long to blow out a set of injectors ! The timing and other tables look as bad.

Ohmy.jpg

Also, in this graph, what is the x axis title and unit?
 
X axis is either mm3 or mpa. Not sure which one. Maybe someone who knows for sure will chime in.
 
Can I get a source for PID from the other party. I think it will be different than what is posted above. If both parties can agree on the correct source/definition, the argument will be settled. I doubt that will happen, though, as fundamental differences in understanding and terminology exist.

P.I.D. is simply the first letter of each word in the how the controller works.

Proportional, Integral and Derivative.

Broken down EXTREMELY simply and written using the big fat crayons, so as not to bore you to death with it, it works like this. The PID controller corrects errors between what something is told to do and what it's actual output is.

The (P)roportional function is just what it sounds like. If it sees an error, it makes a correction that is PROPORTIONAL to that error. 5 to high, take 5 away.

The (I)ntegral funtion adds time to the correction. If I was 5 too high, it takes that 5 out over a period of time. To fast it overshoots, too slow it never achieves the desired value.

The (D)erivative function basically slows the rate of change to prevent an over shoot of the target value and throwing the system into an unstable condition.

Having the PID controls set up correctly smoothes the overall response to error corrections.

If your controls are set up to aggressively, the whole process is unstable and looks like a wave. Set up too conservatively and it can't react fast enough to errors, be it higher or lower than the desired value.

The (P) function is the easiest to establish. I have an error, I need to fix the error.

The (I) function is the hardest to setup, because you are making an estimate of how long it will take to correct an error.

The (D) function is the smoothing process. It's a multiple of the (P) and (I) functions. Essentially its the shock absorber...it's trying to dampen occurances of the error.
 
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Also, in this graph, what is the x axis title and unit?

It's commanded fuel mm3 and rpm's



I hit the like button for your post Rich lol...... thanks for continuing the education
 
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Also, in this graph, what is the x axis title and unit?

In this table DO NOT look at mm3's as a PHYSICAL VOLUME, that's not what it is. It's actually more closely related to throttle position that anything else.

In a stock map, the value is 0 - 140 mm3's. This is simply a reference that NUMEROUS functions rely on.

You ARE NOT asking, for example, 25 cubic millimeters of fuel. What you're doing is telling the ECM that I'm at THIS throttle position.

Example, I'm at 2000 RPM's and I'm commanding 55mm3's of fuel. This results in 20993 psi of pressure being commanded.

NOW, this DOES NOT equate to a specific VOLUME of fuel injected, because what have I still not added?.....DURATION. Once I add duration, now I get a specific volume of fuel that is actually injected. Until we add duration, all I've done is told the fuel system to pressurize the resevoir to 20993 psi. Without a duration table, that pressure goes no where.
 
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The P.I.D. functions are the LAST thing anyone really wants to mess with because they are not nearly as simple as saying I want X degrees of timing, or X psi of rail pressure....it's just not that easy (for me anyway) to picture in my head and go, "Yeah, that's what I want to happen"

Setting up the P.I.D. functions CORRECTLY is a PAIN IN THE AZZ!

What I try to do is this....

In the lower RPM ranges (daily driving, cruising, etc.) I try to make the corrections smoother, sacrificing rate of change because we're not at the point that can really cause damage.

In the upper RPM's and high demand areas, I sacrifice the smootheness for rapid corrections. If my target is 26000 psi and I have the pedal mat'd, I don't want it taking forever to make a correction if it shot to 30,000 psi. I want the correction now!
 
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Ok, so you can log your FCA's actual and cmd. How is it you'd know how much to have the -/+ adjustment to the PID's. I mean, how do you know how close to actual it should/could be ?
 
Yes, you can log the FCA's commanded and actual duty cycle.

What you really need to look at is the data logs.....many of them, and no two trucks will be 100% the same.

The only way you'll get the commanded and actual duty cycle close is the have a good cross section of the data to see what it's doing.

Over time, you get the duty cycle closer to what you really need and the corrections by the P.I.D. don't have to be as harsh or as frequent. It'll always be there because RARELY will you ever get it even close to 100% accurate, because the systems CONTROLLING PARAMETER is PRESSURE. That is what you're maintaining and it's always changing. This is why your duty cycle is such a PITA.
 
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