New engine build Scania DC1601 for our semi truckpuller.

[tall boy]

Well yes I know about the manifold but the idea and the length is about the same. Have a look here some more pictures from last week party we have ones a year for sponsor and team members. De Manne van Janne

Well we have a full power range from 2900RPM down to 2100RPM for now making way over 1000Hp close to 1100Hp per turbo on 3.8 to 4Bar of boost so I don’t thing that’s bad.
With the S482 we want to use we hope to go down to 1850Rpm before we hit the surge line with a 2 mm bigger compressor wheel. HX60 hits the surge line with 0.74Kg/sec and the S420 dos it @ 0.7Kg/sec @ 4Bar boost.

 

[97rada]

watching this

 

[tall boy]

Yesterday I did a load of boring stuff trying to reorganize a lot of wiring as we build a lot more stuff on and around the engine in the last years.
I still did not hear what the engine sound like with the new exhaust set-up and big stags, good motivation to finish the wiring jobs ASAP so I’m able to run the engine and have some fun.

Also try to introduce GTL as legal fuel into the pulling sport. GTL is gas to liquid and is made from natural gas and you could call it the most pure diesel fuel. The mega Jules per liter is a bit less and as the weight is 0.77Kg to 0.8Kg the liter but the cetane Cetane number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] number is a lot more so it will burn a lot easier creating a fast flame front of better combustion and a lot less smoke we think. Ow OK we going to look like we run petrol engines now. :umno:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetane_number"]Cetane number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Leiffi]

Well yes I know about the manifold but the idea and the length is about the same. Have a look here some more pictures from last week party we have ones a year for sponsor and team members. De Manne van Janne

Well we have a full power range from 2900RPM down to 2100RPM for now making way over 1000Hp close to 1100Hp per turbo on 3.8 to 4Bar of boost so I don’t thing that’s bad.
With the S482 we want to use we hope to go down to 1850Rpm before we hit the surge line with a 2 mm bigger compressor wheel. HX60 hits the surge line with 0.74Kg/sec and the S420 dos it @ 0.7Kg/sec @ 4Bar boost.

Yes it runs fine, I just don't like extra volume those tubes make.

BWs work better at high pressure ratios but they exhaust side is not good, usually too small. Well, my turbodealer says BWs never make what manufacturer says but he might be a little bit Holset biased even if he sells all brands.

 

[mfsuper90]

Over there, your idea of pulling is so much different! But thats what makes it cool

 

[tall boy]

New diesel engine configuration in the making. This is the brand new 2L VAG or VW 170Hp commonrail engine and it runs solenoid injectors.

@ Lieffie yes I know about the runners but we have to slow things a bit down as the turbine wheel will damage and also with the uneven fire of a V8 the exhaust manifold pressure is not constant so to avoid that we took the same exhaust set-up as the R720 V8 and some old 14L V8 Scania engines had it as well.

About BW yes most of these turbo are made for petrol engines and getting the turbine side to work for us will be challenge but we have an action plan if it turns out the turbine is to small but on the other side some have to get used about using a wastegate.
It’s more like you gain some more, lose some and find the set-up that works well and as long as we have backup on parts and advice and we can generate data to work and start from we hope to get there fast but we are getting use to it having to reconsider load of things and parameters that did work well for others but that makes it interesting.
As for Holset HX turbo they still got the most easy way to make the turbo setting you want by interchanging parts and if they were to improve on some parts and performance I will bay it and it will save me a lot of time working out what parts to find for the BW turbo.

Hope to make some pictures tomorrow as the other team members did make some preparations on some more goodies I wanted. I get two spare pressure sensor to work with so I can take some readings where I want to find out where we have restrictions.

Ok a other things I get to know today and please comment on this as it was coming from a turbo expert. The HX60 was never mend to run with a 80mm compressor wheel as it will turn the compressor wheel on the turbine shaft if you run it over a 5 to 1 pressure ratio (4Bar or 58PSI) and the way this turbo is balanced it will throw the balance off if this happens so I make some modifications to stop it from turning on the shaft.

 

[Leiffi]

Ok a other things I get to know today and please comment on this as it was coming from a turbo expert. The HX60 was never mend to run with a 80mm compressor wheel as it will turn the compressor wheel on the turbine shaft if you run it over a 5 to 1 pressure ratio (4Bar or 58PSI) and the way this turbo is balanced it will throw the balance off if this happens so I make some modifications to stop it from turning on the shaft.

They mean that smaller exhaust wheel was not meant to be used with 80mm compressor. I have a stock Scania marine HX 60 with 80mm compressor but it has also that bigger 97/92 exhaust wheel that was used in 144 engines. My turbo dealer also said that this marine turbo has some special bearings meant to be used with big compressor.

It's always good to lock that nut a little bit better if running very high boost or overspeeding to prevent it spinning on the shaft.

Have you dealt with Cabo? They should know Holsets.

 

[AsTroSS]

I have also Holset HX60 with 80mm impeller (92mm wheel), it was originally in Scania Marine D16 engine.
But it is with too big exhaust housing , 32cm

 

[Leiffi]

I have also Holset HX60 with 80mm impeller (92mm wheel), it was originally in Scania Marine D16 engine.
But it is with too big exhaust housing , 32cm

Mine is from DSI 14 marine, it's also with 32 housing, I plan to change it to stock 27 housing, better for working truck. With 32 housing my exhaust backpressure is 0.8 bar under boost pressure so I think it will be about equal with boost with 27 housing.

 

[tall boy]

Yes I know Cabo, he is one of our turbo suppliers and made the calculation for the turbo we use now.

We keep some HX60 in stock and the ones with the bigger turbine wheel are a bit harder to get as well.
We run 0,5Bar lower exhaust pressure compared to the boost pressure bit this is taken from a gauge during a run just looking at it so in the future we can log it with the ECU and get the whole picture.

What I mend with the question from couple of post back was, the HX60 was never mend to run a 80mm compressor as it will turn on the shaft so in order to keep it from rotating you have to fit a key to prevent that.

This is the result and this is done by a turbo expert. Burst RPM is about 107.000Rpm after 15 to 20 seconds so I rather have the compressor wheel turn a bit if this is ever going to happen.

Some of the new electronics.

Some other question. If you look @ the first picture in the map De Manne van Janne you will see a P9000 BOSCH fuel pump.
Any info on the pump will be helpful as we have a load of problems with is beaking plungers and fuel pump couplings.
Is it a low pressure hi volume fuel pump like MTU uses on some of the hi speed engines of is it a fuel pump mend for low speed engines not able to run the 1500 pump shaft ROM we need?

 

[Leiffi]

Yes I know Cabo, he is one of our turbo suppliers and made the calculation for the turbo we use now.

We keep some HX60 in stock and the ones with the bigger turbine wheel are a bit harder to get as well.
We run 0,5Bar lower exhaust pressure compared to the boost pressure bit this is taken from a gauge during a run just looking at it so in the future we can log it with the ECU and get the whole picture.

What I mend with the question from couple of post back was, the HX60 was never mend to run a 80mm compressor as it will turn on the shaft so in order to keep it from rotating you have to fit a key to prevent that.

This is the result and this is done by a turbo expert. Burst RPM is about 107.000Rpm after 15 to 20 seconds so I rather have the compressor wheel turn a bit if this is ever going to happen.

Some of the new electronics.

Some other question. If you look @ the first picture in the map De Manne van Janne you will see a P9000 BOSCH fuel pump.
Any info on the pump will be helpful as we have a load of problems with is beaking plungers and fuel pump couplings.
Is it a low pressure hi volume fuel pump like MTU uses on some of the hi speed engines of is it a fuel pump mend for low speed engines not able to run the 1500 pump shaft ROM we need?

Bigger turbines are used in Scania 144 but compressor is 76 mm.

Usually Holsets can take lot of beating, was that compressor surging when it exploded? Seems like it's cast wheel?

Don't know about P9000 pump, someone said Bosch H pump has the same housing, they have been quite durable in normal use.

 

[tall boy]

The compressor wheel was surging is way outwards as you can see with bits and peaces on the track.
Full RPM and boost and it’s a billed wheel and no we did not have a direct failure due to surge hover with the key fitted in the wheel and shaft the compressor is hitting the cover and the one without dos not as we discover last week after inspection.
Manne van Janne II Demo Oud Gastel 2012 - YouTube

 

[Leiffi]

The compressor wheel was surging is way outwards as you can see with bits and peaces on the track.
Full RPM and boost and it’s a billed wheel and no we did not have a direct failure due to surge hover with the key fitted in the wheel and shaft the compressor is hitting the cover and the one without dos not as we discover last week after inspection.
Manne van Janne II Demo Oud Gastel 2012 - YouTube

Surge is maybe the worst that can happen to turbo, that's why many pullers use smaller compressor and overspeeds it to stay further from surge line. I have heard that some turbos can take 50% overspeeds if backpressure is low enough and there is no surge.

 

[tall boy]

Well you could write a book about 1001 ways to blow up your turbocharger.:lolly:

I don’t think the is a lot of difference between over speeding the turbo and welding the bearings to shaft or demolishing the balance of the turbo by hitting the wall while going hard into the surge line, the outcome is the same, very expensive scrap metal.

 

[tall boy]

Yesterday we completed the last bit of wiring on the engine and I manage to drive the truck outside to setup the RPM governor and ALS.

I set-up the ALS to 1Bar or 15PSI boost and the governor max RPM to 2900 and I get what I want spot on, so yes I’m happy with the ECU setting so far. Also our truck driver was very happy and find the engine extreme aggressive on accelerator response.

What is still left is a load of work on safety stuff shielding of turbochargers and air intakes and redo some of the controls on the air shutoff valves.

 

[Joesixpack]

I'm wondering if that choppy method of anti lag and rpm control isn't pretty hard on the chargers?

This video [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r6clb_FhnU"]Truckpulling Almkerk 2012 - Manne van Janne 2 - Scania 164-580 TPmoviechannel - YouTube[/ame] the exhaust side sounds very harsh when it pulls fuel so violently.

Seems to me a softer limiter, and just basic timing retard across all cylinders would spool as well and be much easier on the charger.

 

[tall boy]

I have been asked this question a lot, well look @ it like this everyone want quick spoolup and if you can keep momentum on your turbines they will not slow down and air will flow inward to the engine. If we make the RPM governor to soft ones we hit the max RPM all fuel will drop and it can happen that air surges back to the compressor and it will look like this.
Super final engine recovering from a 1500Rpm dropdown, not bad with a sled pulling so hard.
Eerde 20-08-2011 manne van janne 2 run 2 - YouTube

Most V8 engine running 2 turbochargers in our class will get turbo damage between 50 and 70 meter line on the track due power dropping off and the compressor going into surge and a moment later the sled kicks in asking full power from the engine.

Before reading this remember we run two turbochargers and it could be that only one goes into surge and they other is till able to make boost as power is increased shortly after a power drop.
A compressor that it to surge can easy overspeed the turbo as the is not a lot of flow or no flow or even backward flow over the compressor not pulling a lot of power from the turbine shaft. Same thing as putting you hand on the hose from the vacuum cleaner @ home, see what happens. Look a the dark bleu line is a bit to the left on where the mouse pointer is where the compressor goes into surge and the turbine speed jump up and boost goes down slowly.

To end this we never had a turbo failure halfway on the track, it only happens between 90 and 100 meter line on full power so temperature and full boost will kill the turbocharger.
Also one of the two turbochargers is more than a year old and it’s like new and we run EGT on full power with less than 5 degrees centigrade difference and same boost levels on both chargers.

Have fun.:blahblah1:

 

[tall boy]

Yesterday I had a great conversation with one of my customers from the US about engines with pump injectors.
They had there 18L 6 line on the dyno with a 5” Prostock turbo making a lot more boost than we do pumping out 2300Hp @ 3000RPM and about 5385Nm. Our V8 16L engine makes 5250Nm so we are not far of but we run modified cams.
Question now is dos more cylinders have an advantage as you probably have more flow service in the cylinder heads.

Also about the boost pressure level, we both run without water injection so we stick to 58PSI for now to be save but we also know form our data logs that air fuel ratio get a lot better even going to 62PSI.
A 5” Prostock turbo is able to handle over 78PSI easy with water injection but we know from some other data that the same turbo without water injection goes rapid downwards on efficiency @ about 63PSI making extreme hot air moving a lot volume but no KG/sec or pound per minute.
In about 2 month time we will know the difference between one big Prostock turbo chargers and two smaller turbochargers as we are using as some other teams now start using these extreme expensive 5”turbochargers on the semi truck pullers.

I also wonder what the outcome will be after some time if you run over 350 degrees centigrade or 662 Fahrenheit temp on a billed compressor wheel. From the past we know that a cast compressor wheel will come a apart after getting it over 250 degrees centigrade or 482 Fahrenheit.

I also find some data on the P9000 fuel pump. It's build to run 1000Shaft RPM so max 2000 crank RPM and 1000 bar max injection pressure. We use this pump on our 3 series Scania 14L V8 and we hope to get it to work if we get injectors that can keep the injection pressure down. Personally I think a smaller core Bosch pump or even a Sigma pump could be a better option to make the next step if we want to run this engine with a conventional fuel pump.

 

[Joesixpack]

With effective charge air cooling we found more boost = more power every time. Same boost out of a bigger wheel = more power. IMO if you need to get to those high pressure ratio's your going to get schooled by the large frame 5"+ chargers.

 

[tall boy]

With effective charge air cooling we found more boost = more power every time. Same boost out of a bigger wheel = more power. IMO if you need to get to those high pressure ratio's your going to get schooled by the large frame 5"+ chargers.

Yes I agree but what will happen if there is no effective cooling for the compressor wheel with these 5”+ turbochargers as the centrifugal force is just about the same as the smaller ones making a lot more shaft RPM?

With our game water injection and charge air cooling other than a cooler is not done or permitted.