Thought experiment

300D said:
Science and real world use.


When both are atomized. If mixed in bulk, like the fuel tank, they will quickly separate. The time spent in the intake and cylinder is very short, hot and violent.


Then stop spewing your opinions at us.


Right.


Wrong. A smoking engine is overfueled. That condition has zero benefits to the engine and the environment. Black smoke isn't cool, it isn't good for power and it isn't right.
If your engine smokes black at any other time than the initial few seconds after stomping on the throttle at low boost, you know jack squat about tuning.


Please leave thinking to those of us with functioning brains. Your post proves you know nothing about me or my job.



If you actually turn on your brain for a second, you'll see exactly how stupid you've made yourself look.
Okay, that said, lets go back to 101 basics for Mr. kmkdiesel.
Lesson 1: Black smoke is unburned fuel. That = heat, wasted power and reduced efficiency.
Lesson 2: For people that know how to properly tune an engine, WM injection on a properly tuned engine allows more fuel to be injected due to the increase in air density into the cylinders. It also allows more fuel to be injected for longer due to lower combustion temperatures not putting the engine at risk of heat damage.

Now, Mr. kmkdiesel, if you wish to continue trolling, try to stop making a fool of yourself. You're giving the other trolls a bad name.
Click to expand...




So I haven't been that active here for a bit, can't say I remember your name here but why not take the high road if you know something and want to share it and not be such a dick about it?


The ^DAMN of it is on your first lesson, you get a big "WRONG" on that one.

Diesels produce the most power at stoichiometric yet at that ratio will produce a lot of smoke.


You think in a class as competitive as the MOD class of pullers if there was edge running an excess of oxygen and squeaky clear exhaust thats what you would see???

Thats not what you see, simply because they make the most power using every last bit of oxygen there.....AND to do that you really run an excess of fuel.


Should street vehicles be tuned like this well.....no. But last I checked this was competition diesel...........
 
its not a suprise to me that some one beat me to this topic again but:

"Wrong. A smoking engine is overfueled. That condition has zero benefits to the engine and the environment. Black smoke isn't cool, it isn't good for power and it isn't right.
If your engine smokes black at any other time than the initial few seconds after stomping on the throttle at low boost, you know jack squat about tuning."

anytime you want to asume you are a better tuner than at least half the guys on here i challenge you to any kind of power/ output competition you want.. your opinions hold no water(lol this thread was about water injection) and you obviously have no real idea how to make power.. of course this is my opinion and if you care to enlighten me im sure others would find some entertainment value in you..
 
300D.... just so you know, there is a benefit to having excess fuel in the cylinder. Im sure you know this but in the big boy crowd of big power which im just sure youre a member of, fuel is not only used for power, its used for cooling.
 
300D said:
Science and real world use.


When both are atomized. If mixed in bulk, like the fuel tank, they will quickly separate. The time spent in the intake and cylinder is very short, hot and violent.


Then stop spewing your opinions at us.


Right.


Wrong. A smoking engine is overfueled. That condition has zero benefits to the engine and the environment. Black smoke isn't cool, it isn't good for power and it isn't right.
If your engine smokes black at any other time than the initial few seconds after stomping on the throttle at low boost, you know jack squat about tuning.


Please leave thinking to those of us with functioning brains. Your post proves you know nothing about me or my job.



If you actually turn on your brain for a second, you'll see exactly how stupid you've made yourself look.
Okay, that said, lets go back to 101 basics for Mr. kmkdiesel.
Lesson 1: Black smoke is unburned fuel. That = heat, wasted power and reduced efficiency.
Lesson 2: For people that know how to properly tune an engine, WM injection on a properly tuned engine allows more fuel to be injected due to the increase in air density into the cylinders. It also allows more fuel to be injected for longer due to lower combustion temperatures not putting the engine at risk of heat damage.

Now, Mr. kmkdiesel, if you wish to continue trolling, try to stop making a fool of yourself. You're giving the other trolls a bad name.
Click to expand...


wrong, black smoke is partially burned fuel, not unburnt fuel, some how i knew you would answer that question wrong. :hehe:
 
This guy must work for banks lmao!!!

word of advice 300D, banks is bunk and no smoke will not make you the power we all play with hear at the amazing compD. Perhaps you dont undersdtand correct tuning and what needs to be done to make big power? Think what you will but IMO, youre pretty far off to be making comments like you have.
 
Chit, you ever got a ride on the blue or red busses at KCI coming from the economy parking lots copenglen? lmao

Theyre almost scary!
 
And Begle1 has yet to find anybody willing or capable to write a little narrative on what water does in the intake manifold and continues to do in the cylinder.

It has to do something different in the cylinder...
 
And Begle1 has yet to find anybody willing or capable to write a little narrative on what water does in the intake manifold and continues to do in the cylinder.

It has to do something different in the cylinder...
Click to expand...

Well, here's my answer.

Short history. We're running a very highly instrumented research engine at work. Everything you could think of is controlled and measured. We run the exact same start-up scheme every day, run through the same initial engine health check points, etc. Test procedures remove effects of path dependance, etc.

The engine is turbocharged, but not with turbomachinery. To more exactly control conditions, and eliminate the boundaries of turbomachinery, we are using a very large air compressor, filters, air driers, heaters, and an air nozzle handling unit to control air mass flow, air temperature, pressure, and humidity to the engine.

Recently, the air drier unit began malfunctioning. The humidity of the intake air went up considerably. The effect of higher humidity was: IMEP went up slightly, combustion phasing (i.e. 50% mass fraction burned) was slightly retarded, peak cylinder pressure went down, and exhaust temperature was reduced. All the things you would want.

--Eric
 
ENafziger said:
Well, here's my answer.

Short history. We're running a very highly instrumented research engine at work. Everything you could think of is controlled and measured. We run the exact same start-up scheme every day, run through the same initial engine health check points, etc. Test procedures remove effects of path dependance, etc.

The engine is turbocharged, but not with turbomachinery. To more exactly control conditions, and eliminate the boundaries of turbomachinery, we are using a very large air compressor, filters, air driers, heaters, and an air nozzle handling unit to control air mass flow, air temperature, pressure, and humidity to the engine.

Recently, the air drier unit began malfunctioning. The humidity of the intake air went up considerably. The effect of higher humidity was: IMEP went up slightly, combustion phasing (i.e. 50% mass fraction burned) was slightly retarded, peak cylinder pressure went down, and exhaust temperature was reduced. All the things you would want.

--Eric
Click to expand...


I would not expect an increase in IMEP with an increase in humidity....all else equal.
 
I would not expect an increase in IMEP with an increase in humidity....all else equal.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't either!! However, while I believe the increase was real and was within measurement tolerances, it wouldn't be discernable by the seat-of-the-pants. If I remember right, the difference was 18.92 bar vs 19.07 bar. I'll try to pull the log files from the high speed daq if I get a chance.

One thing to note as well, is this included no cooling effect of the intake charge, as intake temperature was maintained constant. The only difference was in the humidity.

--Eric
 
I would think that intake tempatures would be decreased if they were cooled like in a IC situation where the water is injected pre cooler, or in your case before the refrigerated dryer.
 
................. my whole take was water is H20.... hydrogen and oxygen...... burning it or "boiling" it in the cyclinder would in effect give somewhat the same effects as nos

you remeber the science experiments in grade 10 right.... but a match in an upside down beaker full of oxygen and get a pop... put a match in a tube of hydrogen and get a bang (or the other way around) either way... begle1 is obviasly on to sumthing, because only assholes are trying to prove a point in this thread, none of the bigger names have mentioned dick all yet.... we must shake the knowledge tree harder
 
ENafziger said:
Recently, the air drier unit began malfunctioning. The humidity of the intake air went up considerably. The effect of higher humidity was: IMEP went up slightly, combustion phasing (i.e. 50% mass fraction burned) was slightly retarded, peak cylinder pressure went down, and exhaust temperature was reduced. All the things you would want.
--Eric
Click to expand...

So you have a test rig that can't replicate the gremlin, but it can replicate the gremlin's cousin...

I translate your jargon as "the temperature of the intake remained constant and the greater humidity caused a greater average cylinder pressure, slower-burning combustion, lower peak cylinder pressure and lower exhaust temperature". It'd make sense that a little thing you noticed with some added humidity could be a much more dramatic thing with a big water injection system.

Your data means that water in the cylinder does have a performance and cooling benefit above and beyond cooling the intake. How? Why? It seems like you have all the data to figure out what exactly it does in the cylinder, if the intuitive amongst us wanted to build a theory around it.


Kronic_187 said:
................. my whole take was water is H20.... hydrogen and oxygen...... burning it or "boiling" it in the cyclinder would in effect give somewhat the same effects as nos

you remeber the science experiments in grade 10 right.... but a match in an upside down beaker full of oxygen and get a pop... put a match in a tube of hydrogen and get a bang (or the other way around) either way... begle1 is obviasly on to sumthing, because only assholes are trying to prove a point in this thread, none of the bigger names have mentioned dick all yet.... we must shake the knowledge tree harder
Click to expand...

While I don't pretend to know or even have a coherent theory of what water does in the cylinder, I see nothing that indicates it would break down to oxygen and hydrogen. Decomposition of water would require very high temperatures, electrical current, radiation or chemical reactions that as far as I know don't exist in an engine. It's possible a little bit of it happens due to some bizarre phenomenon, but any theory of operation claiming decomposition of water deserves a whole lot of skepticism.
 
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