upgraded nozzles

[McRat]

Climax runs high boost, lots of fuel, and lower compression. That motor lived. Many motors that were not decompressed, no matter the configuration of boost, egt's, etc, did crack pistons. I'm leaning toward psi causing these weak stock pistons to crack. Although heat does have a detrimental effect to the stock pistons, I don't think heat or heat soak are getting to these parts before the psi takes them out. I also think psi will kill the bearings in a short amount of time. I would not run a motor on the street over 700 hp for any length of time without tearing it down to check the bearings. If psi is killing pistons and rods, the bearings are not going to hold up either.

I'll admit I do not know the history of Kyle's engine any more than I know the history of many other other engines, regardless of what is posted. Heck, there is a blown up engine in a truck that supposedly is still running (for advertising purposes). It's a built engine even.

Most the failures are NOT on the internet, but are often discussed on the phone.

 

[Timbeaux]

Climax runs high boost, lots of fuel, and lower compression. That motor lived. Many motors that were not decompressed, no matter the configuration of boost, egt's, etc, did crack pistons. I'm leaning toward psi causing these weak stock pistons to crack.

Just about every big boost/hp B series you see has lowered compression. Be carefeul though, you may have to break out the starting fluid when they are cold Oh the horror!

 

[Mike L.]

Just about every big boost/hp B series you see has lowered compression. Be carefeul though, you may have to break out the starting fluid when they are cold Oh the horror!

Tim
You Dodge guys still need pony motors and spray to fire up? :hehe: I have a feeling I will pay dearly for that statement.op: :cheer:

 

[partsguy662]

You're dating yourself here, Mike....Most guys have no clue what a pony motor is...:hehe:

 

[Timbeaux]

Tim
You Dodge guys still need pony motors and spray to fire up? :hehe: I have a feeling I will pay dearly for that statement.op: :cheer:

Mike, as much as I would love to derail this thread, I won't allow myself to. We can make side bets about the antiquated Cummins technology in Kentucky...................and have a beer or several :Cheer:

 

[Brayden]

I have yet to see any stock injector, stock fuel system, stock turbo truck make anything over ~525 RwHp with an accurate dyno being operated......

Thank you for stating this... The TTS Extreme was pretty much a benchmark... It made ~500hp on every truck you put it on..

NOW... How come the trucks at a certain dyno event were dynoing 85hp or so high on this same tune?

No need for a response.. just thinking out loud..

 

[TAZMAN10]

"NOW... How come the trucks at a certain dyno event were dynoing 85hp or so high on this same tune?"

As Steve pointed out in his post, Stock Injectors, Stock Fuel system, and nothing else other than TTS tuning has only made 525RWHP.

None of the trucks you are refering to Brayden, qualified for the above statement other than both trucks supposably had stock injectors. Again, you are stirring up things you know nothing about. I have been on both the Superflow Dyno and 2 different types of Dyno-Jets and if the load is correct and the boost reflects the load, you will be with in 5-8% of each run as long as the conditions are the same. If you graph the boost levels at a high enough sample rate you can pick out the boost spikes when needed for tuning purposes only. IF you have a cylinder pressure gauge you can pick out the pressure spikes also. The goal has always been to tune to reduce those spike and prevent engine damage from them but some people who use EFI have no idea how things actually work unless you have been on a dyno with cylinder pressure gauges. And before any other comments are made about MY truck, if I wanted to look at spikes, I could look at the Super flow graph and see 981HP or I could look at the Dyno Jet graph and see 912HP but we look at average HP for tuning and we try to tune out any cylinder pressure (boost) spikes. Have we had help.....you bet....from TTS, McRatt, PPE, ATS, and some of the best tuners in the country but it ultimatly came down to creating a smooth high HP tune up that wouldn't crack pistons. I don't share the tune up specs with any one because I don't think it's fair to ask for help from the above mentioned people then use it to profit from!.......GEEEZ....that sounds very familiar.

In my opinion, copying someone elses tune and reselling it as your own does not make you a good tuner (General Statement Directed to Make a Point). We have sharred (NOT SOLD) our LBZ tune with a few people who had the parts to support it and they are more than impressed. I can make more power but not with out seeing engine parameters I don't like.


We dynoed a stock LBZ and a stock Ford on the same day and the #'s were exactly where the factory said they would be so I would qualify the dyno operater as knowing what he's doing. Also, one of the trucks had been dynoed at another place and it made the same #'s.

 

[McRat]

Thank you for stating this... The TTS Extreme was pretty much a benchmark... It made ~500hp on every truck you put it on..

NOW... How come the trucks at a certain dyno event were dynoing 85hp or so high on this same tune?

No need for a response.. just thinking out loud..

It's a word game. Anyone who's been dinking with these trucks knows we make more power by just adding air without adding more fuel. So instead of saying what the limits of injectors are, he wants to switch the game to "tune only".

But it appears that he is also dismissing the recent LBZ efforts as well. Using the 4th gear Pro Accel test at Westech I logged 530 rwhp with PPE tuning, and before that we logged 527 with a stack. This is the "TTS procedure". I think there is a few more ponies lurking there as well.

The LBZ has the smallest injector flow so far out of the Dmax family.

But since there is no TTS LBZ tuning or LLY tuning, these trucks are owned by "cheaters and liars". Even the classic "prove it at the track" does not change the attacks. I have backed up my claims by running numbers which would indicate the dyno is conservative. You will soon see other trucks trucks running similiar or better numbers since I tell everyone exactly what's on our trucks.

To make it even more comical, I've talked several folk into buying TTS Lift Pumps, and in the past talked people into the TTS LB7 Extreme which is still a good racing program even with the quirks.

The #1 axe I have to grind with TTS, is that their marketing is mostly attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with them 110%, and misrepresentation of what modifications are actually on TTS trucks. When you look at a TTS-only LB7 on a load cell, they are 440-490 rwhp depending on boost level. But there are trucks that dyno as much as 50rwhp over that that supposedly have the same modifications. When you watch enough dyno sessions, you know that is false.

Steve will not acknowledge stock injector big HP buildups because he hasn't done one yet. As soon as he does, then they will actually exist, and probably be his idea to begin with.

 

[McRat]

"NOW... How come the trucks at a certain dyno event were dynoing 85hp or so high on this same tune?"

As Steve pointed out in his post, Stock Injectors, Stock Fuel system, and nothing else other than TTS tuning has only made 525RWHP.

None of the trucks you are refering to Brayden, qualified for the above statement other than both trucks supposably had stock injectors. Again, you are stirring up things you know nothing about. I have been on both the Superflow Dyno and 2 different types of Dyno-Jets and if the load is correct and the boost reflects the load, you will be with in 5-8% of each run as long as the conditions are the same. If you graph the boost levels at a high enough sample rate you can pick out the boost spikes when needed for tuning purposes only. IF you have a cylinder pressure gauge you can pick out the pressure spikes also. The goal has always been to tune to reduce those spike and prevent engine damage from them but some people who use EFI have no idea how things actually work unless you have been on a dyno with cylinder pressure gauges. And before any other comments are made about MY truck, if I wanted to look at spikes, I could look at the Super flow graph and see 981HP or I could look at the Dyno Jet graph and see 912HP but we look at average HP for tuning and we try to tune out any cylinder pressure (boost) spikes. Have we had help.....you bet....from TTS, McRatt, PPE, ATS, and some of the best tuners in the country but it ultimatly came down to creating a smooth high HP tune up that wouldn't crack pistons. I don't share the tune up specs with any one because I don't think it's fair to ask for help from the above mentioned people then use it to profit from!.......GEEEZ....that sounds very familiar.

In my opinion, copying someone elses tune and reselling it as your own does not make you a good tuner (General Statement Directed to Make a Point). We have sharred (NOT SOLD) our LBZ tune with a few people who had the parts to support it and they are more than impressed. I can make more power but not with out seeing engine parameters I don't like.


We dynoed a stock LBZ and a stock Ford on the same day and the #'s were exactly where the factory said they would be so I would qualify the dyno operater as knowing what he's doing. Also, one of the trucks had been dynoed at another place and it made the same #'s.

Tazman, it was posted in this thread that claims of over 625 from stock injectors are dyno tricks.

Being the thread is about stock injector potential output, would you agree or disagree?

I didn't think the issue was even up to debate any longer, I've seen enough trucks (most of them NOT on the internet) go well past that barrier, so I imagine other folk have as well.

But it is not my job to post info on trucks who want to remain private builds. Them sledpullers are a sneaky bunch@!

 

[McRat]

But most importantly, I want this forum to be a resource for hardcore tech discussion for racers.

If I were to post my thoughts elsewhere, there is a high possibility I would get ridiculed for every misstep I've taken since birth and an equal number of downright lies about me.

I'm no rocket scientist, I'm just a hobbyist racer who has been fortunate enough to be able to test alot of different goodies. I'm not always right, but my batting average ain't too bad either.

 

[Timbeaux]

If I were to post my thoughts elsewhere, there is a high possibility I would get ridiculed for every misstep I've taken since birth

I'll probably ridicule you anyway Pat LOL

 

[McRat]

I'll probably ridicule you anyway Pat LOL

Yeah, having Forrest Gump throwin' barbs at me REALLY stings!

 

[TAZMAN10]

This is so hard to validate without taking sides but I will do my best not to offend anyone since I talk with so may different parties.

In my opinion....the stock injectors will support over 600HP with the right set up and if you can maintain the rail pressure to keep the fuel atomized. We are still using the stock injectors in our LBZ but the tuning has been quite the task as some of you know. I have not found the complete limits of the stock LBZ injectors yet but I honestly feel we are close. Although they will support what we are doing, the longevity of the injector is now what we are concerned with. We are currently evaluating the injector coil at the parameters we are running but it takes more time than I have right now to do it so anything on that subject at this point is speculation.

The track time will soon help us evaluate what we are trying to accomplish.

 

[Brayden]

Hmm.. Don't know where all that came from Tazman..

Wasn't talking about you..

I quoted Steve for saying that 525 was the limit on a stock injector stock fuel system truck..

Not to drag Slick (Sheldon) into this.. but he never dynoed over 500hp or so on fuel and put down 580 there..

I was just wondering how that is possible if Steve says that the LB7 is done past 525.

Thanks for jumping in though and clearing things up for everybody.. :cheer:

 

[TAZMAN10]

Brayden,

We can talk about this on the side but your post included a "Certain Dyno Event" which we both know what and who it was intended for. Neither of the trucks, I'm sure you were refering to, were "stock" in any way other than injectors which was stated by the owners of the trucks. If someone has a tuning only TTS truck we will be glad to validate the HP#'s to see where they fall the Dyno-Jet dyno for comparison only not to start contreversy. Steve and I have discussed this issue in detail and I can't see the need to continue with discussing the TTS extreme. If Steve has a question or issue with me he just calls and we talk about it....no big deal. The same works with McRat, ATS,PPE, SoCal Diesel, and many others who are trying to build more dependable engines. You are more than welcome to share in the information as long as you agree not to profit from it.


Send me a PM and we can discuss the other stuff away from this forum.

 

[McRat]

At what point (hp wise) are upgraded nozzles required? I know with common rail technology you can go farther with stock injectors, just curious at which point they need upgrading?

Thanks

Bet you didn't think this was a dangerous subject, eh?

 

[Diesel Tech]

When we were running 30PSI and 2000 deg with 1100ftlb, the pressure and air density were not getting the aluminum hot enough, fast enough. 2000 deg at 45PSIA (30PSI boost) is not the same heat transfer as 2000 deg at 75PSIA (60PSI boost).

So we know based on physics the piston itself will get hotter at the same HP with more boost at the same EGT, because there is more mass of "hot stuff" to heat it up.

How did you dream this up? Physics states that the heat transfer is based on the material, surface area and the temperature it is exposed to. Since the cylinder is the same area, the temperature is the same and the material did not change the heat transfer will be the same. More of your fuzzy math again?

As for my axe with McRat it's simple. The testing he does is a joke at best and he post things that are far from being the truth. The above statment are just part of it but it seems when called upon it he starts in with anything and every thing but the truth. As far as name calling it more of the pot calling the kettle black. If you were to believe his statements you can run 650 RwHp on stock rods and make 750 RwHp on stock injectors then drive the truck to the store everyday and it would be good to go 100K miles!

 

[Diesel Tech]

I quoted Steve for saying that 525 was the limit on a stock injector stock fuel system truck..

Not to drag Slick (Sheldon) into this.. but he never dynoed over 500hp or so on fuel and put down 580 there..

I was just wondering how that is possible if Steve says that the LB7 is done past 525.

The dyno is just a tool and it's best used to look at before and after numbers and that's about it. Before people would really look at the overall number as a mark to know about where you were at but this past year of BS and changing dyno procedures has tossed that out the window. If you look at how the dyno corrections are done they are only for a NA motors at full throttle. The dyno's assumes that the air in the room is the same air in the intake manifold and any boosted application that is not the case. You can modify(cheat) the numbers to get what you want and some have seen it fitting to alter testing procedures to get the results they wanted to brag about but they are just unreal numbers.

 

[McRat]

How did you dream this up? Physics states that the heat transfer is based on the material, surface area and the temperature it is exposed to. Since the cylinder is the same area, the temperature is the same and the material did not change the heat transfer will be the same. More of your fuzzy math again?

As for my axe with McRat it's simple. The testing he does is a joke at best and he post things that are far from being the truth. The above statment are just part of it but it seems when called upon it he starts in with anything and every thing but the truth. As far as name calling it more of the pot calling the kettle black. If you were to believe his statements you can run 650 RwHp on stock rods and make 750 RwHp on stock injectors then drive the truck to the store everyday and it would be good to go 100K miles!

That's good to know! That way I can run air in my radiator and cool down the engine just as well!

Twice as much air stores twice as much heat. Higher pressure air transfers it's heat faster because of it.

As far as my testing "is a joke, far from the truth, everything but the truth, dreamed up, fuzzy math?"

Then post your test results that dispute them. You must be basing your opinion on something.

Give you a head's up Steve, you can't jump into tech threads here, start a flame war, and expect the thread to be locked or deleted at your whim. They might lock threads here, but it won't be because you demand it.

 

[McRat]

...You can modify(cheat) the numbers to get what you want and some have seen it fitting to alter testing procedures to get the results they wanted to brag about but they are just unreal numbers.

Like undisclosed mods and Duramaximizers? Or nitrous bottles?