who has good cams

No one in the diesel market that I know of is going to give you a cam card.....period! Heck if I had a cam card from one that I liked I could have it reproduced here in OKC but I wouldn't do it, no way would I try getting into all the cam B.S. in the Diesel Industry.

Lets see: .060 off the pistons, .010 over gasket with .008 off the head gave me .042 piston to valve clearance, I don't know the in-depth specs but I do know it was on a 105 centerline.
 
If profit margins weren't so protected, then a cam card can be included with all the differing grinds. Truth is a custom grind would be hard to replicate in a regrind. Even if someone had the cam card, the core cam's geometry most likely wouldn't support the new grind. How many are interested in a custom cam ground from a Brazilian UGL, in the sub $400.00 price range?
 
Wicked I already told ya I would be lol! Infact If you need someone to beta test a grind for us big single turbo guys let me know!
 
Jim Fulmer said:
No one in the diesel market that I know of is going to give you a cam card.....period! Heck if I had a cam card from one that I liked I could have it reproduced here in OKC but I wouldn't do it, no way would I try getting into all the cam B.S. in the Diesel Industry.

Lets see: .060 off the pistons, .010 over gasket with .008 off the head gave me .042 piston to valve clearance, I don't know the in-depth specs but I do know it was on a 105 centerline.
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you can send the cam too crane cams / profile engineering department for about $75.00 an get the cam profile on all lobs from lift to dur. open/close center line. but thats just me i'm getting a cam card.
 
Not sure the price is the big issue. Gains from a cam are small. Probably less than going up or down 1mm on a turbo compressor. Maybe show us what a cam has to offer. I would think that one of these data loggers should show temps and boost levels during a dyno run or pass down the track. Maybe before and afters would help? I've had 2 different after market cams. The first was a PDR, the second a Helix 2. They are different, but you have to watch carefully to see the difference. The only reason i did the second swap was for the bolt on gear. Maybe they could be sold for more money if they were shown to be a performance booster. 2 days work is alot of free time (or $1000 at a shop) to give up.
 
Smokem said:
Can you achieve any advantages in lift/duration for a drop in cam over what can be had from a regrind?
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Based upon piston to valve clearance, there is a small window of improvement, in a stock configuration. Seat to seat timing is reduced and rate of lift is increased, to make it "FIT", with additional valve lift of course. A UGL or unground lobe, will allow more flexability in altering event timing. Things can be placed where we want them, keeping all the comprimises to a minimum. Add some valve reliefs and a UGL, will offer the ability for further breathing improvements.
 
Ok,..I want to correct this,....

OT-OF-Here said:
I have run (2) of the cams mentioned above. Both were very good IMO. The question was asked,.. "what can I expect from a cam?" I don't think you can expect a dyno proven increase like you can see with a gasser. What you can expect, IMO, is much better idle,... better economy by a 1 to 2 mpgs and better spoolup which is why you get better mpgs.

Here is what I don't get. Maxspool is talked down on because they are regrinds.???? Pls! Anybodys cam that is a mod of the oem is a regrind. Take a few minutes out and call ANY camgrinder and they will tell you as long as the changes in duration and lift are done within the Rockwell standard of hardness on the lobes then what is the difference?? I may be using the wrong word here but once even a brand new blank is ground then it is induction hardened and hence the Rocwell level of hardness. Cams don't just come that way,... unless I'm misunderstanding what Cam grinders have told me,..... they ALL need to be induction hardened. It is a numerical standard of hardness. As long as it is within the Rockwell level then you are as good with one as another so IMO don't let someone who hasn't even looked into this color your opinion of one manufacturer vs another. It's much better to let the people who are running them or have run them provide their experience.

Another HUGE issue with Cams, again IMO, is your oil being used. Cams will wear faster than anything else in your motor if you don't change from OEM oils. You need CI & CI+4 oils. Ck the labels on your oil and if doesn't have this then you will have premature wear and the dreaded cam lobe flaking problem which is the deterioration of the hardened layer on the cam lobe. The newer oils don't have what we need in the way of additives due to emissions. The CI additives will eat your CAT internals but as most of us have lost the CAT then it no longer plays in the equation. To mention a few oils I have found that carry the CI additives needed then Valvoline Classic Premium Blue is a good one,.. most auto parts stores can order it for you and I believe it only comes in 5 gal or drums. One OTC that is available at Walleyworld is Rottla T,.... it is very reasonably priced too. I'm sure any of the big $$$ premium brands probably have it too. :Cheer:
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I had the cart b-4 the horse on one issue above. Cams are induction hardened 1st,.. not after grinding. All cams except 8620 Billet cams are in fact induction hardened. Don't believe it,.. Call Jerry at Crane Cams,.. I did.

According to Jerry at Crane Cams, the induction hardening level (Rockwell Level of hardness) allows for safe regriding in the .040 to .060 range depending on manufacturer. He has done some Cummins Cams and they are induction hardened.
 
Here is a material quote for the Cummins camshaft core, from the camshaft manufacturer. This is THE same Brazilian core that Cummins used in the 12 valve engine. All production Cummins camshafts were processed by the same means.

Material Type:
• Material will be current production chilled iron casting.

Here is the same for a Duramax we inquired of

Material Type:
• Material will be 5160 induction hardened steel.

I am not sure of the relevance of the hardening process it is what is. These are direct quotes form a camshaft manufacturer. Companies such as Comp, Crane, Isky and Crower do not have casting foundries. They buy the cores, then grind them. Many of the castings they recieve are induction hardened. More so for your gasser cams.

Chilled iron is the hardening process, the molten hot iron is poured into a chilled mold, causing the molecules to form a closer grain structure. The hardness runs far deeper in chilled iron as compared to induction heat treating.

Manufacturers have the responsibity to make it known to their customer as to material and process. It would be hard for many to find a camshaft manufacturer, let alone get this information. This is FACT! Why would I lie?
 
Hmmmm!

WICKEDDIESELS said:
Here is a material quote for the Cummins camshaft core, from the camshaft manufacturer. This is THE same Brazilian core that Cummins used in the 12 valve engine. All production Cummins camshafts were processed by the same means.

Material Type:
• Material will be current production chilled iron casting.

Here is the same for a Duramax we inquired of

Material Type:
• Material will be 5160 induction hardened steel.

I am not sure of the relevance of the hardening process it is what is. These are direct quotes form a camshaft manufacturer. Companies such as Comp, Crane, Isky and Crower do not have casting foundries. They buy the cores, then grind them. Many of the castings they recieve are induction hardened. More so for your gasser cams.

Chilled iron is the hardening process, the molten hot iron is poured into a chilled mold, causing the molecules to form a closer grain structure. The hardness runs far deeper in chilled iron as compared to induction heat treating.

Manufacturers have the responsibity to make it known to their customer as to material and process. It would be hard for many to find a camshaft manufacturer, let alone get this information. This is FACT! Why would I lie?
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And why would I?? I appreciate you clearing this up for me and the folks at Crane.
 
Some people that run cams don't see the performance gain for a few reasns.

1) boost leaks. This has to be the biggest problem in turbo diesels. I find sizeable leaks in at leat 60% of the trucks I check.
2) Cam timing. As simple as it would seem some people misalign the timing marks.
3) Valve lash. At least half of the trucks that I have seen running perf. cams, have valve lash that is off. This can be from retorquing the head without adjusting the valves, or having parts of the wooden dowels still in the lifter and not rechecking lash after 50 miles. And lastly having your head up your......
4) Tuning, Many people think that daily driver trucks need 26degrees timing 200hp injectors, box all the way up, or the plate gone. Tuning the timing and AFC or fuel curve is super critical for the best performance.

5) turbo sizing. I have seen two trucks with the same amount of fuel and modifications dyno together. One had a 62/65/14 the other had a silver 66. The truck with 62/65/14 owned him in every sense of the word. The silver 66 is a much better turbo, but a daily driver with a low stall convertor will not be happy. Having the right turbo, and keeping drive presures in check is very important.

6) drive pressure. There is a lot more that can be done with cams if the customer actually knows what his drive pressure to boost ratio is. More overlap can help scavenge the cylinder and cool the exhaust valve and seat. But if your drive pressures are higher than your boost this works against you, and forms an internal EGR system. THis greatly diminishes performance/efficiency. With high drive pressures there is only a small window of camshafts that perform best, most will have very little overlap.

When somebody is talking about induction hardening they are refering to steel billets. THe process is to rough grind the cam +.006 of the final desired lobe size, then heat treat, straighten if necessary then finish grind. Induction hardening can warp cams slightly. On regrinds or cast UGL's we do not heat treat, however we do parkerize.


Zach Hamilton
 
Your post is right on #4 sounds like me talking and you are correct with #5, add a 12V, DTT 91 converter and 20 degrees like mine to the mix and you better have your tuning face on.

Jim
 
Do you have a time rame in mind for the new cams yet Shane??
 
hmm - never heard of a cam without a cam card before and i have seen a LOT of race cams

Me be thinking that there is confusion between a cam spec card that spells out the centreline and lift/duration data at .050 and installation data for checkin proper install and a card that gives you the actual rise and rate of lift etc of the actual lobes which is usually proprietary

One can not properly install a race cam without the first set of specs cuz you have no way to verify proper setup without it - those timing marks on the gear can be out a mile and so can tdc and the timing pin

Only way to do a cam is to degree it into place.

$.02
 
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