why do people pay so much for regrinds!?!?

Got a question for you cam guys, and i hope i dont get bashed for it, but when is it time for a cam... When will it become beneficial to someone??
 
so am i mistaken that reground cams are not retreated after? at that point wouldnt the regrind have the same rockwell as a blank cam that also has to be ground?
 
Hamilton Cams said:
There is no way to get them for $200 unless you drop them off at the shop and then pick them up and they will not be coated.

There is freight to, from and All of mine are done on a CNC not an old manual grinder. $200 grinds will be done by people guessing at what works to some degree.


Joel, please p.m. me about who sold you a re-grind. I do not condone people making money on re-grinds off of my good name and then taking and taking advantage of people. I will help you out on anything you need to make it right.
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What about LSM in Michigan? I thought they were around the $200~ range for a regrind.
 
DEZLFREK said:
so am i mistaken that reground cams are not retreated after? at that point wouldnt the regrind have the same rockwell as a blank cam that also has to be ground?
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I don't know of anybody re-heat treating and even if they did, the base circle is smaller which creates much sharper nose angles.

Shifty, I don't know if they coat the cams with manganese-phosphate, but they might use a CNC grinder. IF they are doing them for $200 then that is cheaper than anybody I know of with a CNC for a one off. Even if they do them that cheap, you are still dealing with re-rinds. Another thing, is I have not run into their grinds except when a customer called me and said that he got a 181-210 from them. Their customer then asked me where he needed to degree that cam in.

Camshafts are copied all of the time. This is one industry where you can get taken out quick if you are too high on price. People will just go around you to a cheaper grinder. That is why we try to offer really good pricing on new cams. If price is the main concern there is a guy in North Texas that supposedly cuts cams for $80. If you are looking to get a cam, then go to the cheapest grinder, if you are looking for performance, do your research and buy from the guy that designed the cam. IF you are looking for a cheap one of ours there are more than a few shops that will sell you a copy on a reground stock cam.
 
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Hamilton Cams said:
I don't know of anybody re-heat treating and even if they did, the base circle is smaller which creates much sharper nose angles.

Shifty, I don't know if they coat the cams with manganese-phosphate, but they might use a CNC grinder. IF they are doing them for $200 then that is cheaper than anybody I know of with a CNC for a one off. Even if they do them that cheap, you are still dealing with re-rinds. Another thing, is I have not run into their grinds except when a customer called me and said that he got a 181-210 from them. Their customer then asked me where he needed to degree that cam in.

Camshafts are copied all of the time. This is one industry where you can get taken out quick if you are too high on price. People will just go around you to a cheaper grinder. That is why we try to offer really good pricing on new cams. If price is the main concern there is a guy in North Texas that supposedly cuts cams for $80. If you are looking to get a cam, then go to the cheapest grinder, if you are looking for performance, do your research and buy from the guy that designed the cam. IF you are looking for a cheap one of ours there are more than a few shops that will sell you a copy on a reground stock cam.
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I have no problem with a regrind, not at all. And yes I believe the profile on tap is the 181/210 from them. I don't know if they have any other " drop in" profiles available. I dont know if they coat them, but I may call to inquire.

I dont think a regrind from person A will make any less power than a regrind of the same profile from person B, all things equal. Doesn't matter to me who's name is on it or who came up with the profile to start. I just think diesel products are a touch high in price comparison to their gas counterparts. I'm sure the quality of your products warrants the price though. At least you give information on the cams, which is more than most can say.
 
It is sad when you spend $50,000+ and hundreds of hours changing cams after hours until 2-3 in the morning for years, building Hamilton Cams after my work was done building engines all day. Combine that with thousands on Dyno time and then have somebody copy your profiles. That is the main reason that I get upset when I hear of another company selling 181-210's. It is insult to injury when their customers call and say they got a cam from them and ask me how to set it up knowing that I dictated to Geoff what to grind and then recently paid to have the profile re-designed. It is even worse when you hear of people selling "Hamilton Cams" when you have never sold them anything. Thieves are getting brazen these days.

If a cam is copied right, it will perform exactly like the original although being a re-grind it might not last the same. Buy with confidence knowing this.

As far as cost, Diesel cams definitely cost more. The main issue is volume. When a small shop like Hamilton Cams is leading the charge in diesel camshaft technology on a shoestring budget, then yes we are not ordering the 10,000-30,000 cores at a time that the small block Chevrolet guys do to get the retail price down to $189. Add to that there is 3 to 4x the material in a Cummins cam, the fact that they have really wide lobes and are very hard to grind without vibration and torsional forces causing the profiles to vary lobe to lobe. Yes, they cost more but if you think I am getting rich, come spend a weekend with me and I will open my bank account info. for you. I can promise you, I am not charging enough to get rich.


Lastly, I regret going into Diesel camshafts because if you buck the system and do something different, you are considered an ignorant prick instead of an iconoclast. Once you prove your theories, then you get copied by people that re-grind. Of course they will tell you a re-grind is just as good, they don't have any new cores and they want your money. The whole basis of the transaction is that you perceive that they are just as good as my cam.

Big companies don't want to spend the time developing new diesel cams because the engines don't fit into their traditional test cells, and there is quite a learning curve. Instead they are doing the smart thing, waiting for dumb schmucks like me to do all of the development work and then knock it off. I won't name names, but I can think of at least 5 that I know for sure and at lest 4 more that I am pretty sure are copying my work. Like I said, I am working on pushing the envelope with nose angles and performance. Our new grinds at .420" lobe lift will not work on a regrind with such short duration and our new street cams at .350" lift and VERY short duration will be wiping lobes on regrinds. I can't stop copying but I can greatly reduce copied cams life via SHARP nose angles that barely work with new cams.

Thank you for your honesty shifty, that is rare.
 
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What my friend is trying to say is that, uh, their new CAMS are really cool. You're not even going to believe it. Like, um, let's say you're driving along the road with your family. And you're driving along la li la. And then, all of the sudden there's a truck tire in the middle of the road. And you hit the brakes. Err! Whoa, that was close. Now let's see what happens when you're driving with the 'other guy's' CAMS. You're driving along. You're driving along and all of the sudden the kids are yelling from the backseat, 'I got to go to the bathroom, daddy!', 'Not now, damn it!', truck tire, eeeee, 'I can't stop!'. Help! There's a cliff! Aah! And your family's screaming 'Oh my god, we're burning alive!' 'No! I can't feel my legs!'. In comes the meat wagon. And the medic gets out and says, 'Oh, my god.'. New guy's in the corner puking his guts out. All because... you want to save a couple of extra pennies.
 
TheBigNasty said:
What my friend is trying to say is that, uh, their new CAMS are really cool. You're not even going to believe it. Like, um, let's say you're driving along the road with your family. And you're driving along la li la. And then, all of the sudden there's a truck tire in the middle of the road. And you hit the brakes. Err! Whoa, that was close. Now let's see what happens when you're driving with the 'other guy's' CAMS. You're driving along. You're driving along and all of the sudden the kids are yelling from the backseat, 'I got to go to the bathroom, daddy!', 'Not now, damn it!', truck tire, eeeee, 'I can't stop!'. Help! There's a cliff! Aah! And your family's screaming 'Oh my god, we're burning alive!' 'No! I can't feel my legs!'. In comes the meat wagon. And the medic gets out and says, 'Oh, my god.'. New guy's in the corner puking his guts out. All because... you want to save a couple of extra pennies.
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I thought that analogy was for brakes.... LOL
 
Hamilton Cams said:
It is sad when you spend $50,000+ and hundreds of hours changing cams after hours until 2-3 in the morning for years, building Hamilton Cams after my work was done building engines all day. Combine that with thousands on Dyno time and then have somebody copy your profiles. That is the main reason that I get upset when I hear of another company selling 181-210's. It is insult to injury when their customers call and say they got a cam from them and ask me how to set it up knowing that I dictated to Geoff what to grind and then recently paid to have the profile re-designed. It is even worse when you hear of people selling "Hamilton Cams" when you have never sold them anything. Thieves are getting brazen these days.

If a cam is copied right, it will perform exactly like the original although being a re-grind it might not last the same. Buy with confidence knowing this.

As far as cost, Diesel cams definitely cost more. The main issue is volume. When a small shop like Hamilton Cams is leading the charge in diesel camshaft technology on a shoestring budget, then yes we are not ordering the 10,000-30,000 cores at a time that the small block Chevrolet guys do to get the retail price down to $189. Add to that there is 3 to 4x the material in a Cummins cam, the fact that they have really wide lobes and are very hard to grind without vibration and torsional forces causing the profiles to vary lobe to lobe. Yes, they cost more but if you think I am getting rich, come spend a weekend with me and I will open my bank account info. for you. I can promise you, I am not charging enough to get rich.


Lastly, I regret going into Diesel camshafts because if you buck the system and do something different, you are considered an ignorant prick instead of an iconoclast. Once you prove your theories, then you get copied by people that re-grind. Of course they will tell you a re-grind is just as good, they don't have any new cores and they want your money. The whole basis of the transaction is that you perceive that they are just as good as my cam.

Big companies don't want to spend the time developing new diesel cams because the engines don't fit into their traditional test cells, and there is quite a learning curve. Instead they are doing the smart thing, waiting for dumb schmucks like me to do all of the development work and then knock it off. I won't name names, but I can think of at least 5 that I know for sure and at lest 4 more that I am pretty sure are copying my work. Like I said, I am working on pushing the envelope with nose angles and performance. Our new grinds at .420" lobe lift will not work on a regrind with such short duration and our new street cams at .350" lift and VERY short duration will be wiping lobes on regrinds. I can't stop copying but I can greatly reduce copied cams life via SHARP nose angles that barely work with new cams.

Thank you for your honesty shifty, that is rare.
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Zack, I have only spoken with you a few times and your helpful open demeanor is the reason I will only run your products in my trucks.

Thanks for pushing the industry and making it an open flow of ideas type market verses the "My product is the best, you don't need specs." idea of sales.
 
TheBigNasty said:
What my friend is trying to say is that, uh, their new CAMS are really cool. You're not even going to believe it. Like, um, let's say you're driving along the road with your family. And you're driving along la li la. And then, all of the sudden there's a truck tire in the middle of the road. And you hit the brakes. Err! Whoa, that was close. Now let's see what happens when you're driving with the 'other guy's' CAMS. You're driving along. You're driving along and all of the sudden the kids are yelling from the backseat, 'I got to go to the bathroom, daddy!', 'Not now, damn it!', truck tire, eeeee, 'I can't stop!'. Help! There's a cliff! Aah! And your family's screaming 'Oh my god, we're burning alive!' 'No! I can't feel my legs!'. In comes the meat wagon. And the medic gets out and says, 'Oh, my god.'. New guy's in the corner puking his guts out. All because... you want to save a couple of extra pennies.
Click to expand...
Lmfao! Classic.
 
TheBigNasty said:
What my friend is trying to say is that, uh, their new CAMS are really cool. You're not even going to believe it. Like, um, let's say you're driving along the road with your family. And you're driving along la li la. And then, all of the sudden there's a truck tire in the middle of the road. And you hit the brakes. Err! Whoa, that was close. Now let's see what happens when you're driving with the 'other guy's' CAMS. You're driving along. You're driving along and all of the sudden the kids are yelling from the backseat, 'I got to go to the bathroom, daddy!', 'Not now, damn it!', truck tire, eeeee, 'I can't stop!'. Help! There's a cliff! Aah! And your family's screaming 'Oh my god, we're burning alive!' 'No! I can't feel my legs!'. In comes the meat wagon. And the medic gets out and says, 'Oh, my god.'. New guy's in the corner puking his guts out. All because... you want to save a couple of extra pennies.
Click to expand...

I dont have enough room to quote that.................................dammit!
 
TheBigNasty said:
What my friend is trying to say is that, uh, their new CAMS are really cool. You're not even going to believe it. Like, um, let's say you're driving along the road with your family. And you're driving along la li la. And then, all of the sudden there's a truck tire in the middle of the road. And you hit the brakes. Err! Whoa, that was close. Now let's see what happens when you're driving with the 'other guy's' CAMS. You're driving along. You're driving along and all of the sudden the kids are yelling from the backseat, 'I got to go to the bathroom, daddy!', 'Not now, damn it!', truck tire, eeeee, 'I can't stop!'. Help! There's a cliff! Aah! And your family's screaming 'Oh my god, we're burning alive!' 'No! I can't feel my legs!'. In comes the meat wagon. And the medic gets out and says, 'Oh, my god.'. New guy's in the corner puking his guts out. All because... you want to save a couple of extra pennies.
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What about the kids in the back seat? They want you to buy my camshaft. Thanks Bignasty, I needed that.

Jkidd thanks.
 
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