Sidewinder Type D Update thread.

Colin

Sit back and read the threads all over the Internet and tell me why everyone has the same opinion. Tell me why it has not changed for over 20 + years when most all the employee's have changed several times over at GBE. GBE is the new kid at the track and the crew did a good job. To bad the father and son just sit back and bury there heads in the sand and say it isn't so. Listen to what others have posted right here in this thread and maybe you can learn something. Your dad is one of the best if not the best at marketing but he does it at everyone else's expense and the latest video is just more of the same BS. It looks like your going down the same path. If you think I believe GBE had nothing to do with that video, your dumber than I thought.

If I had the budget from GM, Garrett and Bosch that you claim not to of had my truck would have been done and at the event but I don't, so when its completed it will be out at the track. Until then I will continue to work on our customers trucks when asked too.
 
McRat said:
"The experts" know that alcohol takes twice the air that diesel does,
Click to expand...

Diesel Fuel Stoich is 20:1
Methanol Stoich is 6.5:1

So how is it that 20 parts of air to one part of fuel is less air than 6.5 parts of air to one part of fuel?

It take three times as much fuel for Methanol to the same amount of air. This is why Methanol makes so much more power!
 
Diesel Tech said:
Diesel Fuel Stoich is 20:1
Methanol Stoich is 6.5:1

So how is it that 20 parts of air to one part of fuel is less air than 6.5 parts of air to one part of fuel?

It take three times as much fuel for Methanol to the same amount of air. This is why Methanol makes so much more power!
Click to expand...

No, gram for gram alcohol makes less power.

Can you please carry out the mantissas to at least 8 places?

Thanks!
 
Steve, why didn't you race?

Everyone else did. From 17 seconds to 8 seconds.

I was tuning 3 trucks and then some, and I still had time to hop into lanes.
 
McRat said:
Steve, why didn't you race?

Everyone else did. From 17 seconds to 8 seconds.

I was tuning 3 trucks and then some, and I still had time to hop into lanes.
Click to expand...

Pat, this thread is not about Steve, it is about the Type D. Please refrain from derailing........ Thanks
 
Diesel Tech said:
Diesel Fuel Stoich is 20:1
Methanol Stoich is 6.5:1

So how is it that 20 parts of air to one part of fuel is less air than 6.5 parts of air to one part of fuel?

It take three times as much fuel for Methanol to the same amount of air. This is why Methanol makes so much more power!
Click to expand...

Incorrect on several points.

Diesel lambda is 14.6:1, vs. 14.7 for standard gasoline. Not 20:1.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry . If you disagree, I've got several texts here I can scan.

Methanol stoich is 6.4, but 6.5 is close enough to not argue.

Methanol engines make peak power on the rich side of their stoich ratio.

Diesel engines make peak power on the lean side of their stoich ratio.

All of this is per unit of fuel injected.


Methanol, as a fuel, has a lower energy density (15.6 MJ / L max) than both gasoline (octane, 34.6 MJ / L) and diesel (cetane, 38.7 MJ / L).

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density .

Per unit of fuel injected, methanol makes less power than either gasoline or diesel.

However, it (methanol) will burn somewhat efficiently at very rich mixture ratios - rich of it's stoich, possibly lower than 6.0:1.

Gasoline engines typically lose efficiency under 12.0:1 (as a nice round number).

Diesel engines will gain power until they reach the lean-burn limit of the fuel, typically over 30:1. We have measured this.

Methanol is also highly resistant to detonation, allowing higher compression ratios / boost and more aggressive ignition timing.

Doing the math, and using gasoline as a baseline:

Methanol volume to equal gasoline power potential:

34.6 / 15.6 = 2.22, or 220%. Over 2.2x the amount of methanol vs. gasoline required to achieve the same energy potential.

Methanol volume to equal diesel power potential:

38.7 / 15.6 = 2.48 or 248%. Over 2.4x the amount of methanol vs. diesel required to achieve the same energy potential.

In normal racing gasoline engines, the limiting factor to power generation is the amount of oxygen present in the cylinder at combustion.

Airmass / fuelmass = air:fuel ratio

If you're stuck on airmass, your only option is to add more fuel to increase power. Past stoich, you get dimishing returns on this until you hit the rich-best air:fuel limit of the fuel.

With alcohol, this just happens to be about twice gasoline (rich-best ratio at 6 instead of 12). Alcohol has other benefits, though, as mentioned above - detonation resistance, etc., that make it more desirable overall than gasoline in certain applications.

Now, on a diesel engine, where we have (for the sake of argument) unlimited potential oxygen available in the combustion chamber (via both boost and nitrous oxide), we are essentially fuel limited - as much fuel as you put (efficiently - reasonable injector on-time) into the engine, you can lean it out with air.

If we switched to alcohol, we'd have to run 248% more fuel to make the same power, but would require less oxygen to get the job done.

Lunchtime - will continue afterwards with more detail if anyone's interested.
 
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Timbeaux38 said:
Pat, this thread is not about Steve, it is about the Type D. Please refrain from derailing........ Thanks
Click to expand...

SORRY!!! I will get back on topic!

"I heard a rumor that Banks runs hydrogen peroxide and kerosene from a German V2! After the races they FLEW it back to Azusa!"
 
I thought it was hydrozine and diesel....oh wait, that was from watching the asronaut farmer - what a peice that movie was. lol
 
Yeah back in the early 60s when Chris Karamesines broke 200mph in his fueler people said he was mixing hydrazine....and he probably was....fuel rumors are as old as the sport itself.
 
Matt

The Stoich values I listed for diesel was what I was told by Shell on there commercial diesel fuel. I have measure as far as 25 :1 on diesel but found peak power closer to 18 :1 on diesel. As far as Methanol once you add all the plus and minus of the fuel you can make more power on Methanol given the same engine displacement than you can on gasoline and it requires less oxygen to do so. Yes it requires more fuel but the point I set out to correct was it doesn't require more air which was the statement being made.
 
Big Thumper said:
Incorrect on several points.

Diesel lambda is 14.6:1, vs. 14.7 for standard gasoline. Not 20:1.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry . If you disagree, I've got several texts here I can scan.

Methanol stoich is 6.4, but 6.5 is close enough to not argue.

Methanol engines make peak power on the rich side of their stoich ratio.

Diesel engines make peak power on the lean side of their stoich ratio.

All of this is per unit of fuel injected.


Methanol, as a fuel, has a lower energy density (15.6 MJ / L max) than both gasoline (octane, 34.6 MJ / L) and diesel (cetane, 38.7 MJ / L).

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density .

Per unit of fuel injected, methanol makes less power than either gasoline or diesel.

However, it (methanol) will burn somewhat efficiently at very rich mixture ratios - rich of it's stoich, possibly lower than 6.0:1.

Gasoline engines typically lose efficiency under 12.0:1 (as a nice round number).

Diesel engines will gain power until they reach the lean-burn limit of the fuel, typically over 30:1. We have measured this.

Methanol is also highly resistant to detonation, allowing higher compression ratios / boost and more aggressive ignition timing.

Doing the math, and using gasoline as a baseline:

Methanol volume to equal gasoline power potential:

34.6 / 15.6 = 2.22, or 220%. Over 2.2x the amount of methanol vs. gasoline required to achieve the same energy potential.

Methanol volume to equal diesel power potential:

38.7 / 15.6 = 2.48 or 248%. Over 2.4x the amount of methanol vs. diesel required to achieve the same energy potential.

In normal racing gasoline engines, the limiting factor to power generation is the amount of oxygen present in the cylinder at combustion.

Airmass / fuelmass = air:fuel ratio

If you're stuck on airmass, your only option is to add more fuel to increase power. Past stoich, you get dimishing returns on this until you hit the rich-best air:fuel limit of the fuel.

With alcohol, this just happens to be about twice gasoline (rich-best ratio at 6 instead of 12). Alcohol has other benefits, though, as mentioned above - detonation resistance, etc., that make it more desirable overall than gasoline in certain applications.

Now, on a diesel engine, where we have (for the sake of argument) unlimited potential oxygen available in the combustion chamber (via both boost and nitrous oxide), we are essentially fuel limited - as much fuel as you put (efficiently - reasonable injector on-time) into the engine, you can lean it out with air.

If we switched to alcohol, we'd have to run 248% more fuel to make the same power, but would require less oxygen to get the job done.

Lunchtime - will continue afterwards with more detail if anyone's interested.
Click to expand...


I like it... carry on at any time please, sir. :clap:
 
Somebody just got a :eek:wned: real bad!
I'm not going to say who, just...somebody.

It almost gives you hope doesn't it?

Later
Chris

And if anyone knows who I stole that from, I'll give you a cookie at the next diesel event we go to.
 
What is it with this place and cookies all of a sudden...someone must've spent too much time out in Cali!

Chris :hehe: :hehe:
 
Good hydrazine / nitro writeup: http://www.competitionplus.com/2004_10_21/hydrazine.html

Scary stuff. propellants that self-ignite / self oxidize are not to be f'd with.

Steve:

Pat was incorrect about the first part of this statement, but not the second and last parts:

"The experts" know that alcohol takes twice the air that diesel does, and you must inject twice as much to make the same power. Can't double the fuel delivery of a single CP3. Nope.
Click to expand...

As above, we'd have to actually use 2.48 times as much to have the same potential power - methanol, again, makes less power for a given volume of fuel than diesel.

Now, the air math:

Give diesel a 30:1 AFR, gasoline 12.0:1 and the alcohol motor 6.0:1. Assume the same (relative) BSFC, detonation threshold, and thermals, for simplicity (obviously not the case in racing where the last two are pushed to the absolute limit).

To deliever a raw 50 MJ of potential energy (~18 HP / hour, for refernece):

Diesel: 38.7 MJ / L.
50 / 38.7 = 1.29 liters of fuel.
30:1 Air : Fuel ratio:
30 x 1.29 = 38.7 liters of air.

Methanol: 15.6 MJ / L
50 / 15.6 = 3.21 liters of fuel.
6:1 Air : Fuel Ratio:
6 x 3.21 = 19.26 liters of air.

Gasoline: 34.6 MJ / L
50 / 34.6 = 1.45 liters of fuel.
12:1 Air : Fuel Ratio:
12 x 1.45 = 17.4 liters of air.

So, if detonation (combustion temps) aren't a concern, gas can make more power than alcohol from a given air amount ( I didn't think it would actually be by that large of a margin - haven't run these numbers before).

However, in high compression ratio / high boost engines, the higher preignition resistance and lower flame front temps of methanol will allow:

- More boost / compression vs gasoline before preigniton occurs
- More ignition advance vs gasoline before preignition occurs

Compared to a modern racing gasoline... It's a tossup, really. Det thresholds are so high with a good race fuel, and you can play with oxygenation as well.

Then, there's the weight penalty, too. In everything but drag racing, the weight penalty associated with methanol (energy / gallon is really energy / pound) make it less favored vs. gasoline. The efficiency of Audi's R10 vs. allowed fuel capacity helped them dominate Le Mans, as well - diesel efficiency > gasoline.
 
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I agree you would need to use more fuel, no argument from me on that. Since you need less air you can pack more fuel into the same space and increase Hp output for a given engine displacement at the cost of more fuel. Yes each fuel has it's place and when you begin mixing fuels together who knows what will happen for sure until you do it. I do not think your going to be seeing a diesel make peak power at 30:1 , that's not what I have seen. With the effects of NOS there is more going on then just oxygen that it adds.

Let's look at F1 racing and you can see all the games that have been played with the fuel until it got so bad they went to controlling ever aspect of it. I cannot remember the year for sure but they ban refrigerating the fuel at the track. So the next year one team showed up and refrigerated the fuel at the track for the first race and won the protest by saying we did not refrigerate the fuel at the track we did that back at the shop. We only kept it cool at the track it was already refrigerated! That rule was changed the next day.

Fuel can and has been played with for gains and we all know it. Whether it's from mixing it in a tank to adding things after the tank or injecting something along with the fuel just about every game in the book has been done at one time or another with just about every fuel out there. Last year at Daytona a Toyota team was busted for a special grease that was placed on the inside of the intake runners. Anyone involved also knows the diesel fuel Audi ran in the R10 is nothing like the diesel fuel we buy from the pump.
 
Big Thumper said:
...
Pat was incorrect about the first part of this statement, but not the second and last parts:

...
Click to expand...


It's called a typo. I didn't proofread it fast enough. Meant half.

Basically, we have a hard time getting enough DIESEL into a Dmax CR engine with a single CP3, and methanol makes it worse not better. That's the "surplus of air" stuff.
 
If you were to try and use the CP3 to move Methanol it would not work anyways. The pump would destroy itself in short order. If I were to try and use Methanol with diesel you would either mix it with the diesel (not a good idea) or inject it in the intake track like is done on a methanol motor to start with. Methanol adds power to a diesel and that is a well know fact, people have been injecting it for years in diesels. That is one of the main reasons water injection has been limited as people mix it with Methanol which is a power adder and also helps to lower cylinder temperatures.
 
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