Sidewinder Type D Update thread.

Does anyone else wish they hadn't skipped so much of chemistry class right about now?
 
inline6359 said:
How about nitromethanol.:evil

Soich at 3.1:1 is 48,000 btu.:rockwoot:
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The good stuff - stoich is actually 1.7:1 for a 100% nitro blend, we'll use that. It'll burn below 1.5:1, too:

Nitromethan(e, not -ol ;) ), 100%: 12.9 MJ / L
50 / 12.9 = 3.88 liters of fuel.
1.5:1 Air : Fuel Ratio:
1.5 x 3.88 = 5.82 liters of air.

Increasing the methanol content raises the stoich number and lowering net power potential, but has the benefit of stabilizing the fuel somewhat. NHRA spec went up from 85% nitro last year to 90% max allowed.
 
Diesel Tech said:
I do not think your going to be seeing a diesel make peak power at 30:1 , that's not what I have seen. With the effects of NOS there is more going on then just oxygen that it adds.
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I should've been more specific. For a given, steady, fuel rate, a diesel engine will increase in output if more oxygen is introduced into the combustion chamber up until the lean combustion limit.

Conversely, for a given, steady, oxygen rate, said engine will also increase in output until the rich-burn combustion limit is reached. This is actually past (richer) than the stoich ratio at 14.6. Engine efficiency drops off, drastically so, once the 'smoke limit' of the engine is exceeded though - indicative of both lack of available oxygen and mixture / atomization efficiency.

Modern diesel smoke limits are below 17 - 18:1 with proper components and calibration - HPCR has made that happen, along with improvements in pressure charging / mixture energy in the chamber. A 12V Cummins with a P-Pump and hogged out nozzles is nowhere near that.

The engines will keep making more power as you add more fuel past the smoke limit - but the gains get smaller and smaller. Oxygen is getting scarce, and you're likely starting to inject far too soon and too late into the combustion cycle - also hurting efficiency.

So, if your fuel rate is maxed out - effectively limited (injector flow rate vs. geometrically available on-time), you can make less power (run rich) or more power (run as lean as possible), with all else being equal.

If your aircharging system is also maxed out (heads / cam / manifold won't flow anymore, regardless of boost; intercooler as efficient as possible), you've only got one choice to get more oxygen to the fuel in the combustion chamber - increase the oxygen percentage of the aircharge.

And how do we do that, chemistry majors? ;)
 
I skipped all this chemistry BS but this I CAN TELL YOU GET BACK ON TOPIC AND NOT YOUR OWN PEDESTAL . Banks thred about the banks truck not your agendas !
 
If the sidewinder ran a mix of nitro in the tank, they'd be in the 7's for sure. One misfire, however, and sidewinder would be sidelined waiting for another 100,000 dollar motor.
 
Last couple of posts have been some very informative reading, I feel all edjumakated now :rockwoot:
 
Big Thumper said:
The good stuff - stoich is actually 1.7:1 for a 100% nitro blend, we'll use that. It'll burn below 1.5:1, too:

Nitromethan(e, not -ol ;) ), 100%: 12.9 MJ / L
50 / 12.9 = 3.88 liters of fuel.
1.5:1 Air : Fuel Ratio:
1.5 x 3.88 = 5.82 liters of air.

Increasing the methanol content raises the stoich number and lowering net power potential, but has the benefit of stabilizing the fuel somewhat. NHRA spec went up from 85% nitro last year to 90% max allowed.
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My bad i went back and changed it to -ol, I mixxed it up, after seeing it was to late to fix.:hehe:
 
crewgirl said:
bigger turbo?
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Nope, head's done. No matter how much more pressure you put to the intake manifold, you don't get anything more past the valves into the cylinder. Imagine running a big leafblower (say, S400) through a straw. The compressor basically 'backs up' - the compressor pressure ratio jumps, efficiency drops off and the temperature of the compressed air skyrockets. Realize, this isn't a sudden thing, but gets compounded quickly by low-flowing heads / manifolds and little or no cooling.

C.A.P said:
I skipped all this chemistry BS but this I CAN TELL YOU GET BACK ON TOPIC AND NOT YOUR OWN PEDESTAL . Banks thred about the banks truck not your agendas !
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If that was directed at me, C.A.P., this is actually about the Banks truck. Sorry if you don't like the chemistry BS, but it's a necessary evil sometimes if you want to understand how things work.

Mike D has it.

Oxygen content of air: 20.9% (dry).
Oxygen content of N2O: 36.4%

Displacing a given quantity of 'air' with N2O increases the average oxygen percentage that the engine has available in the combustion chamber to react with fuel. Completely independent of head, cam, manifold, turbo, etc. Also has the nice side benefit of extracting heat energy from the aircharge when it exits the nozzle, expands and evaporates. We'll leave the temperature and density side of the equation alone for now, though.

We balance the race engine with turbocharger air (via wastegating / compressor / turbine sizing) and nitrous injection percentage to make as much power as possible at the air:fuel ratio we want (lean). Controlling that properly isn't easy - couldn't do it accurately enough with any of the available aftermarket controllers when we really started trying to get every last bit of fuel burned, and keeping it like that through staging, launching, etc. is difficult, to put it lightly.

The proto controller we built is basically the equivalent of a stand-alone, closed loop, wideband O2 controlled EFI system that solely runs the nitrous solenoids. Works really well with only a couple test outings on it so far.
 
How many different gases are we to include as there are several that will increase the oxygen content if supplied to the intake tract or across the intercooler. The easy one is to cool the charge more (ie: CO2 across the charge cooler works well). Ozone which I believe is O3 and Propylene Oxide or expoy propane C3H6O but chemistry was long long time ago so I might be wrong and feed into the intake. Then the good old standby of NOS which increases the oxygen and cools the charge. Then you can begin to mix gases too. It's a long list and I'm sure there is some that I'm not away of that may already be in use today by someone out there.

Here is a link to some hotrod diesel fuel as well.

http://www.hiperfuels.com/image.aspx?storename=highfuelsn&ItemID=4687260
 
Ok, can we just settle all the chemical engineering banter and semantics and just say, "The Type-D runs on #2 Diesel, straight from the pump, with oxidizing nitrous injected in the intake tract."

It's very simple to do, look...I just did it. There are many ways of getting more power by running an engine on higher power fuels, or introducing an oxidizing agent somewhere between the atmosphere and the combustion chamber. Hell, if I could efficiently and economically run my truck on jet fuel, (it's a gas engine truck, sorry for the confusion) I'd be making gobs of power...at least I think I would.

Enough with the "Did Banks do this," "Do they run that," "I wonder if anyone's tester their..." Can't we all just get along?

Let's squash it, beer pong, kool-aid, and cookies at the next diesel event. You in? LOL

Later
Chris

Beer pong after the racing, always be safe.
 
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As far as I know, we don't have a "Guaranteed to Attend" event list yet, but when we do, I'm sure it will be up on the website.

I'm pretty sure we're going to the Comp D invitational, but don't quote me on that. With everything that's been thrown around lately, we might be going to the moon.

Once I know, I'm sure it will be available to everyone, but I'll make sure there's a link to it so everyone can either plan their attacks or come by and do the whole meet and greet deal.

Later
Chris

Oh, and by the way, my team is the "shizzle fo rizzle!" Dieselfan shoots to score, I shoot to score; there's something degrading about taking your drink and taking your shot at the same time...it's kind of demoralizing. I'll leave it at that: You gotta play doubles to play with us; but if you play with us, you'll lose...unless the walls start moving, then I'm useless.
 
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sleepur606 said:
Ok, can we just settle all the chemical engineering banter and semantics and just say, "The Type-D runs on #2 Diesel, straight from the pump, with oxidizing nitrous injected in the intake tract."

Later
Chris

Beer pong after the racing, always be safe.
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I'm just asking so do not take this the wrong way, you listed oxidizing nitrous. Is this the same old NOS that we all buy off the shelf N2O or something different?
 
Diesel Tech said:
I'm just asking so do not take this the wrong way, you listed oxidizing nitrous. Is this the same old NOS that we all buy off the shelf N2O or something different?
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Yes, it's the same as what you get when you go down to your local NOS Fill Station and get your bottle filled. If you look real close, most bottles should have their DOT approval number, some other info, and it'll say "Oxidizing Nitrous" or something similar. It's just a way to differentiate between the various available nitrogen compounds, or so I believe. You should also note that N2O that's available to the common person from their local fill station should not be breathed in; it contains, usually, sulfur in small amounts to prevent it from being medical grade, it's the same thing that's done with natural gas, but for different reasons.

Anyway...

Later
Chris
 
No I wasn't kidding, it is now in the General section under beer pong.
 
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