47re Clutch Pack Upgrades

I understand, I've seen a lot of big builders have used Raybestos or Borg Warner clutchs. As mentioned i know line pressure makes it all live. Im probably gonna order some different sizes for the Front and Direct clutch packs and play around a bit. I have a pile of steels and good looking clutchs here i might see if i can play some more with. Also have a 46rh laying here i could machine some of the Plates down and go from there. With the Overdrive direct clutch upgrade did you pretty much just add more clutchs or did you have to locate thinner ones and machine the plates? May sounds repetitively asked but better safe then sorry.
 
akadiesel said:
Scat, nobody can even agree to a brand, much less friction material or grooves! Without good pressure, flow, and clearance between frictions(according to app), they are all doomed.
Big Blue24, something for thought--after recently acquiring billet aluminum forward drum, I had slack with either style piston and spring combo. After a lot of thought and measuring, I removed .020 from where spring sits(using country boy lathe) & no slack with early style spring. Still .020 gap for new style spring. So I can continue machining & use newer spring or go even deeper to use two of my choice. The clearance can be corrected with snap ring above wave ring. I may also be able to go a depth that will put more tension on spring initially, which should give it more strength as it compresses?? Since lower pressure plate rests on spring with over .100 clearance to wave ring, I need to be sure first clutch doesn't fall below splines & shim with steel if it does. The real question to me is which way or combo would give the best spring pressure. Just because it didn't work the first time, doesn't mean it wasn't a good idea! Btw, at ATS site I linked to above, they machine bottom pp to .410 for five forward clutches, but that seems to vary slightly to me.
Picture all that in your mind cause my camera don't work!!
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Another thing that affects relationship of forward gear to the forward clutch is the selective shim/spacer on the splined end of the intermediate shaft that extends into the overdrive tail housing. My last failed attempt with double belleville springs and (4) clutches that ended in disaster with just (3) clutches engaged was also hindered by the fact the I changed the intermediate shaft spacer to a larger one which moved the forward gear farther forward toward the front of the transmission leaving less spline width available for forward clutches. If you machine the reaction plate for extra space, you probably want to run a thinner intermediate shaft shim. Likewise, if you machine the pressure plate for extra space, you probably want to run a thicker intermediate shaft spacer/shim in the overdrive housing. I've measured the forward gear and it is barely wide enough to accommodate 5 clutches with steels sandwiched between, but alignment has to be perfect. :blahblah1:
 
Actually, that spacer on shaft at od end is the one that positions the lube hole and affects overall end play. As said earlier, end play can be adjusted in front section and without proper oil flow to od it's all going to burn up anyway!! Improper alignment can reduce flow to a trickle making larger shaft holes pontless. There is also other reasons for poor flow and you should read Sonnax tech articles:Sonnax - Aftermarket replacement transmission, torque converter, and high performance automotive parts.
Snap ring and spacers between the shafts, plus differences and wear in forward drum (there are at least 3 different drums that I have seen) spring, piston, etc sets the splines. Excessive end play & too much clearance between frictions will throw you off. Physics usually push everything to the rear, but not always. As you said, there is very little room for error! Having seen four forward clutch packs hold in over 1,000hp sled pullers, five is more than most need anyway!! Still, be obsessive about details! We see less burnt clutches using Amsoil fluid. There is maybe even better but none have offered a better deal.
Imo a good torque convertor & valve body is critical.I, myself, prefer non-lockup for performance, The weight difference takes a lot of hp to overcome.
 
Scat---You seem like you are on that pays attention. Tried to PM you, assome already too confused! You pretty much gotta go thin in forward with clutch & steel. Lotta options in direct & can only give opinions & some links if you want.
 
AKAdiesel: you dont have enough posts to pm on here. Email me @OldSchoolMopars@yahoo.com. Any help is greatly apprecated or more reading too.
 
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Great Info here!! AKADiesel, any ideas why I have gone through 2 OD piston retainers so quick?? I'm now rebuilding the tranny myself, not my regular tranny Mech..

Since upgrading my 48re W/Shift Kit, Billet servo, Accumulator and Torque Converter, I have gone through 2 sonnax OD piston retainers (I know I have good ATF flowing from the cooler)..

Bill @ DTT said pressures will push the planetary into the piston retainer.. It seems it has to be a clearance or spacer issue..

Reverse drum was trashed also... I never had a problem until I took the tranny to have it up graded with billet parts, Torque Converter and shift kit..

I found out when rebuilding the OD unit my tranny mech voluntarily removed my 6th friction, steele and stepped PP cause he said it was prone to breaking :nail: I had no problems until he got in there...


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Notice the heat ring burn... clearance is was within specs for the intermediate shaft and planetary housing..

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rlawless said:
Great Info here!! AKADiesel, any ideas why I have gone through 2 OD piston retainers so quick?? I'm now rebuilding the tranny myself, not my regular tranny Mech..

Since upgrading my 48re W/Shift Kit, Billet servo, Accumulator and Torque Converter, I have gone through 2 sonnax OD piston retainers (I know I have good ATF flowing from the cooler)..

Bill @ DTT said pressures will push the planetary into the piston retainer.. It seems it has to be a clearance or spacer issue..

Reverse drum was trashed also... I never had a problem until I took the tranny to have it up graded with billet parts, Torque Converter and shift kit..

I found out when rebuilding the OD unit my tranny mech voluntarily removed my 6th friction, steele and stepped PP cause he said it was prone to breaking :nail: I had no problems until he got in there...
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That looks like a lubrication problem to me. Major heat build up there based on your pictures. Check your final end play on the build transmission. That will cause havoc if it is too tight.
 
Yeh, that thing was hot & looks to have been dry there too!!Sometimes, even with tranny in hand, it takes awhile to figure out all the causes. That & worse is why the "professionals" no longer touch my trucks!
good flow from cooler? Checked where? There is usually a one way valve in lines that stops up. Mine were all at heat exchanger. Fourth pic shows hole in shaft that needs to line up with return thru case & hole in retainer. All the Sonnax retainers I've seen had hole perfect with the case, but check yours to see. I would guess at first that shim on tail of shaft was gone or too thin which could block hole & let planetary housing rub. But pic of shaft looks to show the opposite. Looks to be not galled below planet, like shaft was forward, but that would keep planet away from retainer, unless the spot where planet housing rests on shaft has a lot of wear. Looks like excessive gap there in fourth pic, so probably worn there. If shaft was forward, raychem correct & front shaft could be pushing it rearward. Can you tell if pump was fully in housing by looking at gasket? More pics may show more, but you need to look deeper, depending on what you still have there. Put shaft in od section & see if races on shaft are too deep or stick out. Add retainer. It would be flush with case when assembled. How's the hole line up? What you weren't looking for may now be obvious. Maybe not. No matter what the problem, like your fried retainer, what all caused it? What else did the idiot that already spent your money screw up? When I was where you are now, I was about as hot as your retainer, but, for the money, I learned more than he ever will and know that I'd like to know more.
 
akadiesel said:
Yeh, that thing was hot & looks to have been dry there too!!Sometimes, even with tranny in hand, it takes awhile to figure out all the causes. That & worse is why the "professionals" no longer touch my trucks!
good flow from cooler? Checked where? Return Line)There is usually a one way valve in lines that stops up.(Mech said he removed it) Mine were all at heat exchanger. Fourth pic shows hole in shaft that needs to line up with return thru case & hole in retainer. All the Sonnax retainers I've seen had hole perfect with the case, but check yours to see. Will do! I would guess at first that shim on tail of shaft was gone or too thin which could block hole & let planetary housing rub. But pic of shaft looks to show the opposite. Looks to be not galled below planet, like shaft was forward, but that would keep planet away from retainer, unless the spot where planet housing rests on shaft has a lot of wear. Looks like excessive gap there in fourth pic, so probably worn there. If shaft was forward, raychem correct & front shaft could be pushing it rearward. Can you tell if pump was fully in housing by looking at gasket? More pics may show more, but you need to look deeper, depending on what you still have there. Put shaft in od section & see if races on shaft are too deep or stick out. Add retainer. It would be flush with case when assembled. How's the hole line up? What you weren't looking for may now be obvious. Maybe not. No matter what the problem, like your fried retainer, what all caused it? What else did the idiot that already spent your money screw up? When I was where you are now, I was about as hot as your retainer, but, for the money, I learned more than he ever will and know that I'd like to know more.
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Thanks for the reply.. The large hole in the shaft and the retainer hole line up 95%... I have not checked the return line housing channel and the sonnax retainer for line up... It just seems odd that it all started immediately after I paid to have the thing upgraded.. I removed the pan within a few hundred miles right after the up grade to ensure there was not problem, and the pan was full of the retainer shavings.. I showed him and he said sorry, bring it back and he would fix for free... Well all he did was replace parts not fix the root cause...

I was reluctant in tearing into the tranny myself, but after reading the manual I jumped right in and am glad I did.. I'm having a good time and I feel its easy at this point.. It's not going back together til I solve this retainer problem..

Thanks for the help, I will be checking that everything lines up.. You said that you enlarge the hole in the retainer?? Can you explain (details).
 
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raychem said:
That looks like a lubrication problem to me. Major heat build up there based on your pictures. Check your final end play on the build transmission. That will cause havoc if it is too tight.
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While waiting on washers & some other parts, I put it all back together to measure end play/clearances (as when retainer damage occurred) and it seems that I have no end play at all..
 
None won't work, for sure. Reasons for none: too thick thrusts between shafts, drums & pump, direct not all way in shell, and maybe more. Maybe pump not fully in, so sealing rings not working? And fluid not directed right.
 
If you do it yourself & screw it up, then its the cost of an education. If you pay a "pro" to screw it up, it's your cost for his lack of one! The more you learn, you should see how little you know. All that heat & lack of fluid has most likely hurt a lot of parts from the pump back. You may need another tranny or core for parts.
 
If rear planet gears & all survived & intermediate can be cleaned up? you may be able to file where planet housing sits on shaft & use Sonnax shims(22700-Z) behind 3- or 4-Tanged OEM Washers to get as close to .005 as possible on intermediate shaft. I get most of my parts from Dacco and they can get or have most of what you need. Should be one near you.
 
akadiesel said:
None won't work, for sure. Reasons for none: too thick thrusts between shafts, drums & pump, direct not all way in shell, and maybe more. Maybe pump not fully in, so sealing rings not working? And fluid not directed right.
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I think it's the direct not seated all the way into the shell... I questioned it when it went together... Actually I was gonna check that first off when I had the zero end play..
 
akadiesel said:
If rear planet gears & all survived & intermediate can be cleaned up? you may be able to file where planet housing sits on shaft & use Sonnax shims(22700-Z) behind 3- or 4-Tanged OEM Washers to get as close to .005 as possible on intermediate shaft. I get most of my parts from Dacco and they can get or have most of what you need. Should be one near you.
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I think mine is 6 tab (48re)??
 
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