In light of recent events.

[Diesel Tech]

Look at what's happened and I think its time for us to get with someone who knows how to properly design a cage and listen to what they have to say. The cages from NHRA/IHRA are limited based on speed and weight. The weight limit is 3600 lbs so we need some real input from people who design these things. Nascar has close to the same weight limit and the speed is similar for the top classes. If you look at a 3600 lb Vs 8000 lbs I'm sure its going to be a big change between the two. So you do one of two things, slow the speed at which the full cage is required or make the cages stronger to handle the weight. I'm willing to bet that a cage is going to be required in an 8000 lb truck at a much slower speed than most think. So it will boil down to different cage designs based on speed and weight just as everyone else has already done.

 

[McRat]

WARNING - Unpopular Opinion Alert!

Coming from a motorcycle background with some time spent in cars as well, I'm not sure exactly what everyone is talking about.

#1 safety issue is design of the vehicle. If the vehicle is difficult to control, there will be more crashes, more injuries, and more fatalities.

Safety equipment is akin to a parachute. A good rulebook with good design specs is akin to doing a good pre-flight, and keeping a honest logbook. Given the choice, I'd rather not have the plane fall apart to begin with than rely on jumping out of the damn thing.

I want late model trucks with all their factory safety equipment intact and older trucks retro'd to the same level BEFORE you discuss putting funny-car cages in street trucks.

Anything less is saying that late model racers need to be penalized for buying a safer vehicle to start with.

These guys are going turn these trucks up regardless. And if you ban them from the racetracks, they will race on the street and will kill both themselves and innocents for good measure. The "rollbar point" is where most folk ditch organized drag racing and take it to public highways instead.

I say stick with the existing safety guidelines outlined by the NHRA until there is sufficient data to indicate they are MORE dangerous to race (incidents AND injury) than gasoline powered "garage-built" race cars.

Drag racing continues to be one of the safest venues in motorsports. There is no need at this time to create a whole league of 700HP diesel street racers just so we can skip over control and braking problems.

Lets face it, no rollbar/cage/frame in the world is going to stop you from killing some spectators, crew, or the guy in the other lane. Like all my rides, #1 is control. I really don't want to die doing this, but I'd rather die than kill someone else.

 

[crewgirl]

Pat, think of this.
Kat is racing. She lines up next to a guy with as much experience as yourself, which would make him nearly God-like according to the things you say. the previous round 2 Fords had run and both of them puked a little antifreeze on the track at about the 1/8th mile mark. One or both of them hit the water spots and lose control.

Think seriously about this now: in a drag race at 100+ mph where 2 drivers get outta shape and one of those drivers is the woman who stands by you, raises your children, and shares your life, don't you wanna know that you didn't spare a single expense to make her as safe as possible?

 

[crewgirl]

I say stick with the existing safety guidelines outlined by the NHRA until there is sufficient data to indicate they are MORE dangerous to race (incidents AND injury) than gasoline powered "garage-built" race cars.

pat, I hope I read that part wrong, but I could swear that you just implied you want to see someone get seriously hurt to prove the need for safety regualtions.

 

[turbomatt1]

WARNING - Unpopular Opinion Alert!

Coming from a motorcycle background with some time spent in cars as well, I'm not sure exactly what everyone is talking about.

#1 safety issue is design of the vehicle. If the vehicle is difficult to control, there will be more crashes, more injuries, and more fatalities.

Safety equipment is akin to a parachute. A good rulebook with good design specs is akin to doing a good pre-flight, and keeping a honest logbook. Given the choice, I'd rather not have the plane fall apart to begin with than rely on jumping out of the damn thing.

I want late model trucks with all their factory safety equipment intact and older trucks retro'd to the same level BEFORE you discuss putting funny-car cages in street trucks.

Anything less is saying that late model racers need to be penalized for buying a safer vehicle to start with.

These guys are going turn these trucks up regardless. And if you ban them from the racetracks, they will race on the street and will kill both themselves and innocents for good measure. The "rollbar point" is where most folk ditch organized drag racing and take it to public highways instead.

I say stick with the existing safety guidelines outlined by the NHRA until there is sufficient data to indicate they are MORE dangerous to race (incidents AND injury) than gasoline powered "garage-built" race cars.

Drag racing continues to be one of the safest venues in motorsports. There is no need at this time to create a whole league of 700HP diesel street racers just so we can skip over control and braking problems.

Lets face it, no rollbar/cage/frame in the world is going to stop you from killing some spectators, crew, or the guy in the other lane. Like all my rides, #1 is control. I really don't want to die doing this, but I'd rather die than kill someone else.

2 quick questions for you, Pat...
#1 how much more safety equipment does your 2005 pickup have than my 1995 ?
#2 If you had the choice, would you rather have your wife, child, brother, friend, etc, race with, or without a cage at the 12sec level ?
(ask your wife that same question about yourself)

 

[morkable]

Well I think you guys are a little hard on McRat. While I totally believe in safety equipment, I do think that you can go to far and become fanatical about stuff. I run in the 10's and I am in the process of picking out a roll bar and driveshaft hoops for my truck, I am also getting a tranny blanket and a engine diaper. I have done alot of racing in my life (and I would still not consider myself to be better than anyone else) and I have never felt safer than in my truck, it launches straight every single time, it pulls straight and I feel comfortable that if I had the misfortune of hitting a slippery spot that I would have no problems of driving out of it. I have lowered my truck and allways make sure that all of my parts are in excellent shape.

I have raced superbikes in the 10 second range for a few years earlier in my life. The only safety gear you have there is your helmet and a leather suit. I still felt safe (but much less safe than with the dodge) In my dodge I have airbags, I have a full frame, I have engineered crumple zones.

I would have no problem letting my wife drive my truck either, and I plan on bringing my son up through the ranks to drive a truck similar to this one as he gains experience

Kevin

ps, please remember another thing, to go 10 seconds takes alot more than 10k in mods, and unless I suddenly win the lottery I am doing it on a limited budget, and if I suddenly had to add in a full tube roll cage and a bunch of stuff that guys that are running gassers and running 8's have, well I would have to quit, just the reality of it

 

[Dockboy]

If I recall from my old nhra bracket days in a car, a swing out is not legal after a certain et. as there for the joints can break and bar can do alot of bodily injury or even death if it comes loose

Joe,

Swing out bars are legal to 8.50 per current NHRA Tech. If you use the right hardware (clevis pin and bolt type), they are very strong. Probably stronger than the CM itself. I don't know that I would trust the "spring" type though.

Let me preface my following comment by saying that I installed saftey equipment in my truck well before it was required. The first time I went into the 12's, all I could picture was the front drive shaft breaking and shooting up through the cab right into my crotch!! So I put driveshaft loops on. The first time breaking 110 mph, all I could picture was the AT's rated at 85 mph I was running on, flying apart at the stripe and sending me through the wall!! So I put on speed rated tires. And now I have a roll bar (6 point) in the truck. I did all this, not because it was mandated, but because it is what made ME feel safe!! I'm well past my "young, dumb, and full of cum" stage in life!:hehe:


But.......

I do believe we need to watch how "fast" we start mandating extra safety equipment. While I do agree we need to "bump" it up from the min. NHRA requirements, we can't kill the possibilites of the "Avg. Joe" racing because they are ultimatly who are going to grow the sport.

Here are my thoughts for some basic requirements:

13.99 - 12.00 - Helmet and Jacket as long as original cab and firewall are intact.

11.99 - 11.00 - All the above plus 6 point Roll bar, 4-5 point harness (same as current 11.49-10.00) and neck collar.

10.99 - 10.00 - All of the above plus roof and dash bars (cage) I'm sorry, but at 10.99 and faster.......it's not much of a daily driver anymore unless of coarse your name is........ Aw........nevermind!!

9.99 - 7.5 - Requires a License and Cert. chassis anyway.

 

[JQmile]

That truck sure went through/over the guardrail like it was nothin'. I think 11.99 is still a good spot for cages. Everyone takes a risk in this sport, after all one of my childhood heros John Lingenfelter died as a result of complications from a crash in a 2000# car that was certified to 6.0 sec. Not sure whether they are legal everywhere or not, but a buddy of mine with a low 11 sec '55 Chevy has his door bar dip down on the front side so he can swing his legs through when he gets in. I've been trying to figure out how fast to make my truck because I am not sure whether I want to cage it or not, here in LA, getting in a bad accident on the street is a big possibility, and smacking my head on a rollcage in my street truck is a big worry.

With all this being said, I think if you are in the 9s, 10s, or 11s, you should have the best cage you can afford.

I'd like to hear a chassis guy chime in as well.

 

[McRat]

That truck sure went through/over the guardrail like it was nothin'. I think 11.99 is still a good spot for cages. Everyone takes a risk in this sport, after all one of my childhood heros John Lingenfelter died as a result of complications from a crash in a 2000# car that was certified to 6.0 sec. Not sure whether they are legal everywhere or not, but a buddy of mine with a low 11 sec '55 Chevy has his door bar dip down on the front side so he can swing his legs through when he gets in. I've been trying to figure out how fast to make my truck because I am not sure whether I want to cage it or not, here in LA, getting in a bad accident on the street is a big possibility, and smacking my head on a rollcage in my street truck is a big worry.

With all this being said, I think if you are in the 9s, 10s, or 11s, you should have the best cage you can afford.

I'd like to hear a chassis guy chime in as well.

Yup, Lingenfelter died at Pomona in a very safe 4-cyl racecar that weighed very little. One of the safest tracks, next to NHRA headquarters, surrounded by the best hospitals in the world.

 

[Trainrobber]

I have to agree with morkable and McRat. The rules that are already implemented do a fine job. I too raced motorcycles for quite some time. I ran the 60" pro sportbike class that limited you to 60" of wheelbase on a street tire. I was running 8.0-8.1s @ 170+ on a street tire with no bar. There wasnt one pass that didnt scare the living crap out of me. If i hit that same patch of coolant halfway down the track, not much to save ole trainrobber. Its racing, its dangerous. Should we make the bikes have cages built around the riders? If your worried then dont do it. Trust yourself that in the event of a problem, your driving skills will allow you to get out of a situation safely. I have been in some VERY ugly ones. so far (knock on wood) been ok, due to the preventative measures instated in the rules to prevent mechanical failures. As for the roll cages, i strongly feel that the rules that apply now are just fine. Yes the trucks are heavy, but because of that, they arent that fast. They also IMO handle and hook ok at slower then 11.30+. IMO, when i first messed with my truck, my first time to the track was a 12.05... I soon got it into the 11s and honestley, felt i could drive without hands. Maybe, it is easier for some to control a vehicle then others. Maybe some of us dont have a problem because they feel comfortable because of there driving ability(McRat?) The rules already have a roll bar which mandates door bars, hoop and rear bars that are welded to the top of the hoop no less then 5" below the top. I feel that it is sufficiant. Until the time comes when my truck feels to dangerous to get down the track safely,( which will prob. be when it hits the next rule requirement i figure around 10.4-10.5 due to mph) i am comfortable with this rule as it stands. At the point im not, I will just build a chassis truck for my own safety. If people are worried about this, nothing stops them form installing a massive 12-14 point in your ride. If you feel its neccessary then do it.
I am installing a cage in the truck this year. I plan on following the rules already stated and to be honest, im pretty comfortable. I am taking measures this year that arent rules but just for my own piece of mind.
These trucks are dangerous, its just to easy (and becoming extremely polpular) to hav a truck run in the 12s or 11s. To make everyone have a cage that run 12.0s is ludacrist.

 

[Diesel Tech]

WARNING - Unpopular Opinion Alert!

I want late model trucks with all their factory safety equipment intact and older trucks retro'd to the same level BEFORE you discuss putting funny-car cages in street trucks.

Anything less is saying that late model racers need to be penalized for buying a safer vehicle to start with.

So you want to use the factory safety features that were design for a truck to be crashed at a max speed of 90 MPH when your traveling at 130 MPH+? I believe the factory does one hell of a good job and they set there limits for a damn good reason. So if we follow your idea here, any truck running quicker/faster than 90 MPH needs to add some sort of protective bars, hoop or cage to keep it just as safe as the factory designed it to start with!

That sounds good to most of us but I believe the question has to be how much to add and where. This is where we need to get to someone that really knows how to do it and what's the proper way to do it. Just adding a cage isn't the answer, it has to be done right or its not worth anything and may event hurt safety. The answers are not going to come from a racer unless he is a chassis builder as well and has some back round in working with these weights. I think a good place to start to look would be some of the off-road race trucks. They have, been there and done that long before we started racing at these speed with our trucks.

 

[aircop]

safety

Guys no matter how good a driver you are or think you are, even the best parts fail at times. the safety equipment is needed. Hey Mcrat they build parachutes for airplanes now as safety equipment. Not personal chutes, chutes for the entire plane.

 

[McRat]

2 quick questions for you, Pat...
#1 how much more safety equipment does your 2005 pickup have than my 1995 ?
#2 If you had the choice, would you rather have your wife, child, brother, friend, etc, race with, or without a cage at the 12sec level ?
(ask your wife that same question about yourself)

#1 dunno. I assume your truck was rollover tested, crash tested, air-bagged, with 4 wheel ABS discs, interior padded, collapsing steering, and maybe a few things I forgot. Straight axle 4x4 trucks are inherently dangerous due to limitations of ride height and geometry.

#2 my wife has been running 12's and quicker for the better part of a decade with her normal daily drivers. She is Spring Mountain trained, and has well over 1000 passes in various cars and trucks. My concern for her safety has me doing a safety check of her car/truck every time before a race.

Like I said, this is an unpopular opinion. But it is based on experience and facts. Fix the problem. Don't throw bandaids on bo-bo's. Get the trucks on the ground and get them safe.

Safe doesn't mean turning them into armored cars. Safe means they will go where the driver wants reliably.

 

[Trainrobber]

Our bodyshop has been in business for 25+ years. To my knowledge, most trucks do take a heck of alot more hit then cars. I feel they are safe regardless of thier weight. I would much rather hit a tree in my truck at 60 then in an echo... Another reason i dont feel they need cages at the grocery getting speeds. My mother would love this thread... Eat your pees too.

 

[Stingpuller]

The rules are fine as is.

Leave the rules alone! There fine. If you do not fill safe then by all means build it until u do. There is no 8000 lbs 10 second trucks so lets drop that also. I live in Ohio and we have a no helmet law on motorcycles. I WILL NEVER HURT ANYONE"but myself" By not having my helmet on! Why should YOU tell me I have to? Before everyone starts flaming I have raced for 25 years and have wrecked twice. The last time I went backwards through the lights"finish line" at 155 mph. I started race my Duramax because I do fill safe in it.

 

[JOHNBOY]

#1 dunno. I assume your truck was rollover tested, crash tested, air-bagged, with 4 wheel ABS discs, interior padded, collapsing steering, and maybe a few things I forgot. Straight axle 4x4 trucks are inherently dangerous due to limitations of ride height and geometry.

#2 my wife has been running 12's and quicker for the better part of a decade with her normal daily drivers. She is Spring Mountain trained, and has well over 1000 passes in various cars and trucks. My concern for her safety has me doing a safety check of her car/truck every time before a race.

Like I said, this is an unpopular opinion. But it is based on experience and facts. Fix the problem. Don't throw bandaids on bo-bo's. Get the trucks on the ground and get them safe.
Safe doesn't mean turning them into armored cars. Safe means they will go where the driver wants reliably.

I agree 100%.

 

[JasonCzerak]

I think we should stay very close to the NHRA regs as well. If anything, impose some of hte rules .5 sooner. Also in addition some problem areas.


1. This isn't the case with specific setup races like NHDRA events, but at test and tunes every track I've been at must been un-regulated enough to not care, but keeping the same class truck/car running against another is a must. I have refused every time to run next to a bike, or a car that is just way faster then me (read: big tire tube frame more torque then my truck). IF there is to be an incident, you both need to have as equal of a weapon. I'd totally blow though a funny car or right over guy on a bike if they crossed in front of me or the other way around.


2. Correctly rated tires for the speeds you are going. If you have 37's with 90mph rated tires and you have 700hp, you should be running no more then the 1/8. Sorry, but that's just nutz.

3. If you drive a chevy, you should have proper tire rod ends to keep your wheels pointing in the correct direction.

4. Lose tools? Why do you have a full box of tools in your truck and you drive down the track? Tho maybe over reacting here, but that's a little messed up as well. This is not sled pulling here!

5. proper brakes. I'm going with EGR's this summer as soon my pads are done. They are good for one panic stop in OEM form and that's just a tad to little for me.

 

[JasonCzerak]

Leave the rules alone! There fine. If you do not fill safe then by all means build it until u do. There is no 8000 lbs 10 second trucks so lets drop that also. I live in Ohio and we have a no helmet law on motorcycles. I WILL NEVER HURT ANYONE"but myself" By not having my helmet on! Why should YOU tell me I have to? Before everyone starts flaming I have raced for 25 years and have wrecked twice. The last time I went backwards through the lights"finish line" at 155 mph. I started race my Duramax because I do fill safe in it.

Ummm, w1cked is 8300# and 10.40's if I'm not to far off... We've already beat him to death of the roll cage topic tho. Spare him

 

[dieselbeef]

seeing as how i dont race but i do know gary personally....im gonna stick my nose in where it probly dont belong


first of all let me say i drag raced for 20 yrs in various forms. mostly streetracing. a70 gtx on gandy bridge in the 90's was my hometrack. and i was top dog for quite awhile. never posting times on the windows at the track so as not to give myself away. i started runnin 13's and werked my way into the high nines w/a streetlegal car.
the day i went 11.99 at bradenton the tech guys handed me a rulebooka dn told me not to come back til it was legal. man i was pissed off. so i went to orlando. after a few weeks guess what happened....dont come back w/o a cage. i never bracket raced or did any kind of sanctioned racin up to that point. but i needed to test and tune...to the tune of 9.97@132.
if you were at an event where nhra was runnin the show you'd either tech or go home pissed.

honestly i dont see the issue here. if ya wanna play ya gotta pay. initiate the nhra rulebook as it applies to the trucks...cage..firesuit..driveshaft loops...trans blanket..cutoff switches..and the real killer for all you ''iI GOT A FAST TRUCK GUYS IS..crankshaft centerline height.

isnt there anyone here that currently races a truck that has raced anything in a legal event before. you guys all act like this is somethin thats never been done before...well i got news for ya....theres been guys racing heavy assed pickups for yrs. we raced our tow vehicles..a 93 cummins i bought brand new..

this oughtta be a no brainer...it aint run what ya brung kids....if yer truck cant pass tech then ya run the class it will pass tech for or go home...if ya go too fast for yer class rules ..ya go home....it really is that simple from here...really just need to tweak the rules for the diesel fuel instead of gasoline

by the way..this is the longest post i have ever posted any where but i think im gonna stop now...yall got me wound up though ill tell ya cuz it sems so simple to me...

 

[Bye Now]

seeing as how i dont race but i do know gary personally....im gonna stick my nose in where it probly dont belong


first of all let me say i drag raced for 20 yrs in various forms. mostly streetracing. a70 gtx on gandy bridge in the 90's was my hometrack. and i was top dog for quite awhile. never posting times on the windows at the track so as not to give myself away. i started runnin 13's and werked my way into the high nines w/a streetlegal car.
the day i went 11.99 at bradenton the tech guys handed me a rulebooka dn told me not to come back til it was legal. man i was pissed off. so i went to orlando. after a few weeks guess what happened....dont come back w/o a cage. i never bracket raced or did any kind of sanctioned racin up to that point. but i needed to test and tune...to the tune of 9.97@132.
if you were at an event where nhra was runnin the show you'd either tech or go home pissed.

honestly i dont see the issue here. if ya wanna play ya gotta pay. initiate the nhra rulebook as it applies to the trucks...cage..firesuit..driveshaft loops...trans blanket..cutoff switches..and the real killer for all you ''iI GOT A FAST TRUCK GUYS IS..crankshaft centerline height.

isnt there anyone here that currently races a truck that has raced anything in a legal event before. you guys all act like this is somethin thats never been done before...well i got news for ya....theres been guys racing heavy assed pickups for yrs. we raced our tow vehicles..a 93 cummins i bought brand new..

this oughtta be a no brainer...it aint run what ya brung kids....if yer truck cant pass tech then ya run the class it will pass tech for or go home...if ya go too fast for yer class rules ..ya go home....it really is that simple from here...really just need to tweak the rules for the diesel fuel instead of gasoline

by the way..this is the longest post i have ever posted any where but i think im gonna stop now...yall got me wound up though ill tell ya cuz it sems so simple to me...

I agree here. If a guy wants to run pro-street (10sec) class he needs to have the safety equipment installed required for that class. If he doesnt pass tech that doesnt mean he cant run. He'll just have to run the class his truck is set up for. Gary was lucky to walk away... Everybody remember that.