In light of recent events.

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On another note... we usually take six trucks to the track to race. Only one has a roll cage ( our pro street truck). We didnt want to cage the others because they are also daily drivers. That's why those trucks are ran in ET brackets.

Sheila
 
Kinetic energy of an object is equal to 1/2 the mass times the square of the velocity.

3600lbs at 160 MPH (Around an 8.50 ET, nominal for the NHRA min spec 'full cage') is around 9.91 x 10^7 lb-ft of energy (the unit is actually 'poundal-ft' - equivalent to 'joules' in the metric system).

At 5500 lbs, the same potential energy is present at 129.5 MPH.

At 7500 lbs, it only requires 110.9 MPH.


That NHRA spec is for full-bodied cars running 8.50 and slower, 3600lb max. Faster / heavier, and you need more protection.

Probably not a good idea to use NASCAR as a comparison - their cages are built radically different than anything you'll ever see in a street-based vehicle, and designed at certain points specifically for impact absorption.

Here's the math if you guys want to do it:

(Mass in pounds divided by 2) x [ (Velocity in MPH * 1.4666)^2 ] = energy, in lbs x (ft^2 / sec^2)
 
McRat said:
Like I said, this is an unpopular opinion. But it is based on experience and facts. Fix the problem. Don't throw bandaids on bo-bo's.
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So in this last case the truck was going straight down the track when something broke and it took a left turn. Driver did what he did but it still hit the guard rail then bounce across the track and into then over the guard rail on the other side. So what does your experience and fact tell you to fix when it's in the middle of happening?

Safety equipment is there just for when things of this nature come up! Something went wrong and the vehicle is out of control not due to the driver but do to a failure............. **** happens. Experience and fact tell us that we need to have safety equipment just for these cases. What you do not know and no one else here knows is how much and where to put it. Lets get to the people that do know and follow what the say instead of putting our heads in the sand and say everything is fine.
 
dieselbeef said:
first of all let me say i drag raced for 20 yrs in various forms. mostly streetracing. a70 gtx on gandy bridge in the 90's was my hometrack.
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sorry to be OT but..... this was funny to hear. Gandy was my ricer race track in the early 80's. I had a Supra that used to smoke 240 and 80Z's. Every once in a while we did use Sunshine speedway though.

Looking back... how stupid was that. If you hit the wall... concrete doesn't give. If you when over the wall, you'd likely drown in the bay!
 
I heard said truck was running 12psi tire pressure and when the converter locked and turbo spooled the slicks wrinkled badly and then it happened. This info came from a well respected member here at the scene. I will not name him. Was this truck a 1/2 ton chasis? Could there have been some frame twisting here?
 
Diesel Tech said:
So in this last case the truck was going straight down the track when something broke and it took a left turn. Driver did what he did but it still hit the guard rail then bounce across the track and into then over the guard rail on the other side. So what does your experience and fact tell you to fix when it's in the middle of happening?

Safety equipment is there just for when things of this nature come up! Something went wrong and the vehicle is out of control not due to the driver but do to a failure............. **** happens. Experience and fact tell us that we need to have safety equipment just for these cases. What you do not know and no one else here knows is how much and where to put it. Lets get to the people that do know and follow what the say instead of putting our heads in the sand and say everything is fine.
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So you are saying that instead of finding out why they crash, put 400lb of extra steel above the CG, beyond NHRA rules, to make the trucks less likely to crash?

Interesting. Run wiith that idea.
 
I was brought up a motorhead though am new to formal racing due to where we lived....no track....you do the math. The stuff we did as "kids" downright scares me now. The other day I ran for the first time with the truck at a test and tune here at our track. 8 sec 1/8's and low 12 1/4's gives you the definite feeling that things are getting fast....and those numbers are slow for today's diesel standard. My first thought was I thought it was time for some stressing up in the cab. When my wife watched me accelerate to 85 in a few more than 600 feet she realized that this missle is deadly and for lack of better words said you race like that again without some gear and you're looking for a new wife. Then a few days later...like this last Sunday night, our track put on it's Big Bucks Tenn-Tuck 1/8 mile race. A dragster left the right lane, crossed over and hit the left wall at 150 mph. It wasn't pretty. His competitor was 1000th behind him, and managed to stay out of the way somehow. Now she REALLY is serious...because you don't know what's going to happen around you even if you're square and running a text book run.

The moral is sanctioning bodies exist for a reason. It's unfortunate that accidents like this all too often occur too late for some to be protected from ignorance by regulation. Thankfully though, most have a self preservation bone that keeps them safe in their own vehicles. But you never know if the guy next to you has that same bone. Thoughts of an 8000 lb dually looking for a target at 100+ mph doesn't give one a warm and fuzzy feeling. I, for one, support R&D for ammended regs in all areas of safety. We are, after all, in our infancy in the genre, and getting faster by the day. Do we want to be reactive in our rule book ammendments, or pro-active ladies and gentlemen? We have to be looked at differently than the slow heavy "race cars" that were in the 14's a few years ago.

Chris
 
McRat said:
So you are saying that instead of finding out why they crash, put 400lb of extra steel above the CG, beyond NHRA rules, to make the trucks less likely to crash?

Interesting. Run wiith that idea.
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That's not what he's saying and you know it Pat. Take your "I hate Steve" blinders off for a minute and contribute something usefull instead of twisting things around.

Does it really matter WHY it crashed AFTER the fact ? Of course we'd like to know why...but I'd rather see it safe WHEN it crashes instead of having someone tell my family what COULD have been done to save me after the fact.

Personally...I've been driving cross country all day today....trying to decide how much cage to put in my truck. I'm building enough motor to need it....Gary just showed me that I have to have it.
 
Big Thumper said:
Kinetic energy of an object is equal to 1/2 the mass times the square of the velocity.

3600lbs at 160 MPH (Around an 8.50 ET, nominal for the NHRA min spec 'full cage') is around 9.91 x 10^7 lb-ft of energy (the unit is actually 'poundal-ft' - equivalent to 'joules' in the metric system).

At 5500 lbs, the same potential energy is present at 129.5 MPH.

At 7500 lbs, it only requires 110.9 MPH.


That NHRA spec is for full-bodied cars running 8.50 and slower, 3600lb max. Faster / heavier, and you need more protection.

Probably not a good idea to use NASCAR as a comparison - their cages are built radically different than anything you'll ever see in a street-based vehicle, and designed at certain points specifically for impact absorption.

Here's the math if you guys want to do it:

(Mass in pounds divided by 2) x [ (Velocity in MPH * 1.4666)^2 ] = energy, in lbs x (ft^2 / sec^2)
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Very interesting. There are several trucks at or above 5500 lbs cranking out 129+ in the quarter. I agree that we need to get the CG down to lessen the opportunity of roll over, but I have seen all sorts of vehicles barrel roll that sit VERY low.
 
McRat said:
So you are saying that instead of finding out why they crash, put 400lb of extra steel above the CG, beyond NHRA rules, to make the trucks less likely to crash?

Interesting. Run wiith that idea.
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And just where did you dream all this up. What I said is no one on this board knows what it needs to be safe at the speeds we are running. One thing for sure is the as supplied stock truck isn't safe enough under the conditions were seeing to day. Look at the numbers Matt posted up and tell me the same old crap you've been posting all along!

"3600lbs at 160 MPH
5500 lbs at 129.5 MPH
7500 lbs at 110.9 MPH
That NHRA spec is for full-bodied cars running 8.50 and slower, 3600lb max. Faster / heavier, and you need more protection."


All have the same Kinetic energy. 3600 lbs is where NHRA says full cage or go home! So it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that something needs to be done for safety. I know this is way over your head but I thought that event you would have figured it out by now. :bang
 
I would like to see better tech inspections at the track which means better qualified people to do it. I have looked a certain trucks that are very fast and I must say some of them aren't fit to race at these speeds. I've seen tech at sled pulls and the 15.00 was all that was needed, no one looked at the trucks or cared. This is where you start by making sure the truck can even make it to the finish. When that's solved, start looking at bigger cages.
 
Mike L. said:
I would like to see better tech inspections at the track which means better qualified people to do it. I have looked a certain trucks that are very fast and I must say some of them aren't fit to race at these speeds. I've seen tech at sled pulls and the 15.00 was all that was needed, no one looked at the trucks or cared. This is where you start by making sure the truck can even make it to the finish. When that's solved, start looking at bigger cages.
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This is especially true at tracks on TNT night that don't see the Diesels much. Many track officials may not assume what a truck is capable of and since we are in a gray area of NHRA rules more or less, it is important that they know what they are dealing with.
 
UNBROKEN said:
That's not what he's saying and you know it Pat. Take your "I hate Steve" blinders off for a minute and contribute something usefull instead of twisting things around.

Does it really matter WHY it crashed AFTER the fact ? Of course we'd like to know why...but I'd rather see it safe WHEN it crashes instead of having someone tell my family what COULD have been done to save me after the fact.

Personally...I've been driving cross country all day today....trying to decide how much cage to put in my truck. I'm building enough motor to need it....Gary just showed me that I have to have it.
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Actually, it is Steve calling me stupid, not the other way around, but you're welcome to rant anyhow. ;)

It absolutely matters why the crash happened. No crashes is the best safety ever.

Everyone is acting like my post says I want all safety equipment outlawed. Spare me.

Everyone is acting like the safety equipment in that pickup failed and killed the driver and some fans. Nope.

So exactly what is the point?

I will continue to obey NHRA/IHRA rules like always. If the "Diesel Guru" guys want 9 second safety equipment on a 12 sec truck with nothing but tuning in it, I will simply write "gasoline only" on the fuel door and continue to race like always.
 
Pat, nobody is saying that you want safety equipment outlawed, and I agree that we need to know why the crash happened to address those issues as well. Also, nobody is acting like safety equipment failed. That truck had a full cage in it and the cage did it's job. I think that what folks are trying to address here is safety in general. No one here wants to see folks spend money on safety stuff unless it is necessary,(or they just want to) but we don't really have enough data to tell us what that is.

I find it funny that 2 of the brightest minds can't put aside personal differences long enough to post for the betterment of the sport.... Kinda sad.
 
Timbeaux38 said:
This is especially true at tracks on TNT night that don't see the Diesels much. Many track officials may not assume what a truck is capable of and since we are in a gray area of NHRA rules more or less, it is important that they know what they are dealing with.
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Famoso is notorious for strict tech, test and tune or not.

You can get away with far more at a "diesel" event than at Famoso on a Friday night.

Directed not at you, but your group:

Let's be honest, a couple months ago you folk were bragging about running under the safety index you were tech'd at, and also slamming on the brakes right before the traps.

Now you are all lecturing those of us who DO obey all the safety rules that we are cretins with no regard for safety and are reckless.

Most of this safety discussion has no ties to safety at all. It's about which trucks will be winning this year via politics. That is cool. But you do not have to insult the other racers personally, or make up stuff to get it done.

The biggest problem is, that you stand a serious risk of getting somebody killed to do it. If you force folk to go race on the street, you are killing people. Period. No ambiguity, and I take THAT personal. Too many dead friends to take that lightly.

You want to kill innocent folk, do it your hometown, not nationwide. Thanks.

You can go back to your infomercials.
 
Mike L. said:
I would like to see better tech inspections at the track which means better qualified people to do it. I have looked a certain trucks that are very fast and I must say some of them aren't fit to race at these speeds. I've seen tech at sled pulls and the 15.00 was all that was needed, no one looked at the trucks or cared. This is where you start by making sure the truck can even make it to the finish. When that's solved, start looking at bigger cages.
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Prob the best post in this thread...
 
Given my profession, I always lean heavily on the side of safety, I have a degree in safety and crash investigation, and I have seen the preverbial, if it can happen eventually it will. I taught aerobatics for over a year, and have done things in an airplane that would make 90% of you turn plaid. (I am not bragging!)
Every time I went up in an aerobatic airplane I wore a chute. It sucked, it was uncomfortable, and it gave me a continuous "weggie"! Not one time did I plan to use it, but it sure was comforting to know it was there if I needed it. There is no such thing as good enough, or "safe enough". The reason for that is that all of the safety equipment that is currently required, and/or available was a result of something that has happened. Would Gary have walked away had he not been surrounded by a cage? Who knows, but the fact that he did walk away speaks volumes to me. IMHO, taking a lacksidasical attitude towards safety is not only ignorant, its negligent.

I am building a truck to get into this sport. I love speed, I love power, and I love to be in control. Like every one of you, I feel that I am pretty damned good too. With that said, on my way to bakersfield I ordered a 10 point cage. I ordered race seats, and 5 point harnesses, I ordered a fire suit, boots, helmet and nomex. I ordered a fire suppresion system, and plan to get whatever else I can find. If I ball it up into the wall, I want to be having a beer looking at the scrap of metal and thinking "Wow, I am glad I had that crap". FOr me, safety simply is not an option, and I personally think that the gear needs to be looked at and a definitive decision needs to be made based upon need. I agree no band aids, but I disagree with leaving it the way it is. Were lucky it happened to someone with a cage. I would hate to be writing about someone who didn't
 
McRat said:
Let's be honest, a couple months ago you folk were bragging about running under the safety index you were tech'd at, and also slamming on the brakes right before the traps.

Now you are all lecturing those of us who DO obey all the safety rules that we are cretins with no regard for safety and are reckless.


You want to kill innocent folk, do it your hometown, not nationwide. Thanks.

You can go back to your infomercials.
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Don't put words in my mouth........ Thanks

What we saw in 10.50 and in 12.0 was index racing. People race the stripe... It was not invented last year. No where did I ever say that you are a cretin with no regard for safety.... that is a load of crap. And I think that your assertion that this thread is somehow tied to determining who wins is absolutely ridiculous. I don't see how improving safety to competition vehicles forces anyone to race on the street. Anyone can stick an outlaw 10.5 motor in a street car and cause a horrible wreck on the street. Is NHRA responsible for those wrecks because they have rules governing those cars at the track?

All that being said, this thread is not about you or me or east v. west or whatever you are trying to make it. It is about what happened over the weekend and what can be done to assure that if it happens again that we will have the same result......... a driver around to post about it on Monday. If you want to start another thread on a different subject, feel free to do so, otherwise keep it on track please.
 
JQmile said:
Everyone takes a risk in this sport, after all one of my childhood heros John Lingenfelter died as a result of complications from a crash in a 2000# car that was certified to 6.0 sec.
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I always thought that John even though he sustained serious injuries was expected to recover. I was under the impression that his death was the result of an Anesthesiologist F'ing up.
 
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