Studs or head bolts?

I'm getting some studs this weekend. when yall say o-ring do u mean in the actual head or something like the Scheid fire ring gasket. Would that work just as good as o-ringing?
 
Tlewiscummins said:
I'm getting some studs this weekend. when yall say o-ring do u mean in the actual head or something like the Scheid fire ring gasket. Would that work just as good as o-ringing?
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You could fire ring your truck. Your head has to be machined to accept it though.
 
Big Swole said:
I'm going to twins soon and Jeff Garmons says an O-ringed head and my stock bolts is All I will need!!!

He runs stock head bolts on BOTH of his trucks (850ish HP race truck and 650ish on his Ram 2000)!!

just me passing on his .02
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Why not just go w/ studs? Ive never heard of too many CR guys running Oring heads
 
Well, if the stock CR head gasket is good to about 70psi with studs and no-oring. Is that STILL the case if you use this magic torque seq? Or does this torque seq only apply to o-ring and stock bolts?
 
JasonCzerak said:
Well, if the stock CR head gasket is good to about 70psi with studs and no-oring. Is that STILL the case if you use this magic torque seq? Or does this torque seq only apply to o-ring and stock bolts?
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My CR is just studded from what I have heard studs and the MLS stock head gasket are just as good as oringing... I havent ran mine over 55lbs of boost though...
 
MLS means Cometic, right? Cometics aren't very popular from what I've read...
 
Begle1 said:
MLS means Cometic, right? Cometics aren't very popular from what I've read...
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the stock gasket on common rails is Metal Laminate System type.
and I've also heard the cometics aren't holding up well.$.02
 
Tlewiscummins said:
I'm getting some studs this weekend. when yall say o-ring do u mean in the actual head or something like the Scheid fire ring gasket. Would that work just as good as o-ringing?
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Last time I look, shied removed the WireRing gasket from the online catalog. Wether or not they still offer them, I do not know. Though they do have the Fire ring and gasket set.
 
Here's my take on it...

Studs are far superior to bolts for clamping. The studs allow the tightening torque to be applied completely in the vertical direction clamping the head to the block. Bolts on the other hand use a good portion of the tightening torque to twist the length of the bolt before the threading portion actually overcomes the friction and begins to turn.

You also need to consider that the studs allow you to torque the nut on the fine threaded portion of the stud vs. stock head bolts you are applying the torque on the coarse threads in the block. So the same torque applied to the find threads will provide for more clamping force as well.

Bottom line, studs are "better" at providing the great clamping force needed. Are they overkill, probably in most applications. Will stock bolts hold? Maybe.

Headgasket life is dependent on alot more things than using bolts or studs. Most dependant on cylinder pressures.

Ask the guys running stock bolts with lots of boost what kind of compression they are running...



For those of use looking for a better use for your old head bolts, they happen to be the same size as the 6 holes in each side of the block (engine mount holes). My old bolts worked perfectly to mount my block on the engine stand this weekend...
 
Keating has been running bolts since day one. The last motor we pulled out of the truck had 90+ passes on it without a tear down running boost pressures in excess of mid 100's. The motors he has built for others run them as well.

Nope....won't work.:hehe:
 
THATpreston said:
Keating has been running bolts since day one. The last motor we pulled out of the truck had 90+ passes on it without a tear down running boost pressures in excess of mid 100's. The motors he has built for others run them as well.

Nope....won't work.:hehe:
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He is just lucky LOL
 
How about studs with stock gasket torqued with the "magic" torquesequence?
Would that hold some extra psi´s for a a while?

Background is it seems to be hard to find someone who wants to O-ring the head around here (Sweden), and I want/need something thats keeps me safe untill I can aford buying a Oringed head...

I´m not trying to run 65+ Psi on stock gasket, but wonder if it will be a little bit safer, or am I breaking the gasket torqueing to 120+ Lbs?
 
For my application, I am going to try head bolts with an o-ringed head. Thanks for all the input on the subject and keeping it on topic.

I think studs maybe a waste of money and maybe overkill for my application.
 
I'm just curious, how low is the compression on the keatingmachine truck that's running mid 100's for boost pressure?
 
Ok , I am sure there are several ways to make a stock head bolt hold , with the combination of lower compression ratios and other tricks that pioneers of the sport used before good quality ARP studs were available . These tricks were necessary back then, and some people hold on to the past.


A stock head bolt cannot achieve consistent fastener Clamp load equal to an ARP2000 head stud.
This is a scientifically tested and proven fact


ARP has tested the method talked about on the torque to yield, (meaning you stretch the bolt, and it a onetime use and throw it away) stock head bolts, The results were interesting, the stock bolts are all over the map on mating surface clamp load, with this stand on you head and wink your right eye three times, and you left eye only once methods .

The bolts clamp load very a great deal from one stud to the next. , and this was an additional interesting part, they varied a great deal between different people torque with the same torque wrench.


The ARP 2000 stud was dead on every time stud to stud and from person to person.


On pulling threads out of the block, This was most assuredly a installation error, if you don't follow the instructions on stud installations, meaning finger tight only for the stud with a clean oiled hole, and you crank the stud in tight, you bottom stress the threads on the block.

I know that in the man book it says that you should never read instructions ,and you manhood is in jeopardy you read them , but its necessary ,


A primary advantage of a stud is it archives a better purchase on the block in that it is set in the block before the torque process begins. A stud uses a fine thread on the torque end ,when you use bolts to secure the head, the fastener is actually being “twisted” while it’s being torque to the proper reading. Accordingly, the bolt is reacting to two different forces simultaneously



So the FACT is use ARP studs and you will have a better chance for a predictable result, of you can try the monbo jumbo method , and hope you’re doing it right ,
 
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I'd like to ask a stud question, it's related, some what to the the side of the topic at hand.

Comp you mention "clean oiled hole". What's the trick to clean the bolt/stud holes with the head still in place?
 
JasonCzerak said:
I'd like to ask a stud question, it's related, some what to the the side of the topic at hand.

Comp you mention "clean oiled hole". What's the trick to clean the bolt/stud holes with the head still in place?
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I don't know on that one, but I always screw then in with the Allen head and back them out a fraction of a turn to make sure they are not bottom out. The purpose is to not pull in the block threads in the opposite direction
 
Compressed air works great to blow stuff out. I threaded mine in and then backed them out about 1/4 turn to make sure they weren't sitting on the bottom.

COMP, while I run studs, there is always more than one way to skin a cat and obviously the torqued bolts are working so to say they are inefficient and wrong are, at least in my opinion, your opinion. It's also known that you are a big dealer for ARP so you are biased in this discussion. Not doubting ARP's testing, just saying that they aren't the only option.
 
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