12v head...stock appearing

just to clarify zach, was not knocking you... although that comment could be taken ether way.

You have done an amazing thing for cummins fans with the birth of your head

and no, my head is not totally stock... stock is stock... We the mechanically inclined pick our brand of factory garbage and modify it to suite our needs... hell, i plan on running one of your heads in the future.

im %100 behind you and the idea of makin rules that make sense...

but then again.... isnt that how racing started... those who put the time in, and do the extra homework are the ones that come out on top.... because theyre pushing the envelope that others dont even see
 
I apparently stepped in a big pile with this thread. In my mind the rules are so out of whack that this was a plausible argument. If the rules state no aftermarket heads, then at least half of the heads being used should not be. If the rules state stock appearing and water, I also don't understand the issue as a big percentage also knowingly use and aftermarket head that is superior. Since the rules are illogical and do not really police anything at all, I don't fully understand the outcry.

I wanted my head to be allowed in different classes. Since it is not, but an aftermarket modded chinese casting is, that is pretty much cheating, I thought I would show the error in the rules logic. I will let this one lay now.

kronic, thank you for your clarification.
 
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What I don't get is I see people on here that say that it is illegal based on principle but say to build a truck to the rules and exploit the grey areas...

I will see if I can read illini rules on my phone...

Sent from my rooted Velocity Ally
 
I think the rules in most classes as they are written, have too many grey areas. A rule that allows only OEM head with only certain casting numbers is the only fair thing to do, Anything else if ambiguous and will lead to more issues and more cheating or bending of the rules.
 
Kronic_187 said:
but then again.... isnt that how racing started... those who put the time in, and do the extra homework are the ones that come out on top.... because theyre pushing the envelope that others dont even see
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I think the thing that bothers most isn't the time or ingenuity people put in, but the money some are capable of throwing at stuff.

I don't compete, but even in other scenarios I don't mind being beaten by someone who's done nothing more than put more time, effort, or brains in his setup. It's when money comes into play that things get "grey".

IMHO.
 
what is this chinese head you keep talking about zach? all the china cast cummins heads are junk. put one on the bench and see for yourself. they flow less than a brazil/international cast right out of the box....unless theres some new china casting i havent seen....disreguard the thread DERAIL....not directed towards zach but these threads these days are becoming loaded full of so much BS the avg guy cant tell the difference in fact or fiction. :bang:blahblah1:
 
I think what Zach is refering to the fact that the water ports in the head are off somewhat allowing for a better port and polish job then what a factory cummins head will allow. I do know that the aftermarket heads I've seen were heavier than a stock cummins.
 
lenahan05 said:
what is this chinese head you keep talking about zach? all the china cast cummins heads are junk. put one on the bench and see for yourself. they flow less than a brazil/international cast right out of the box....unless theres some new china casting i havent seen....disreguard the thread DERAIL....not directed towards zach but these threads these days are becoming loaded full of so much BS the avg guy cant tell the difference in fact or fiction. :bang:blahblah1:
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alabama cylinder head?
 
Tony R said:
I think what Zach is refering to the fact that the water ports in the head are off somewhat allowing for a better port and polish job then what a factory cummins head will allow. I do know that the aftermarket heads I've seen were heavier than a stock cummins.
Click to expand...

This
 
Tony R said:
I think what Zach is refering to the fact that the water ports in the head are off somewhat allowing for a better port and polish job then what a factory cummins head will allow. I do know that the aftermarket heads I've seen were heavier than a stock cummins.
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yeah i will agree with that. but the chinese "alabama" heads fully ported will not flow what a brazil or international cast will. the ports are thicker but the water jackets are also moved. the core shift in these heads are horrible. i tried porting them like the good brazil and international casts....needless to say you will hit water everytime trying to get the flow up around where the good castings run. i've junked my share of china heads trying to prove what everyone always says on here "china heads have more meat to port." yes theres a lot more port material but also way bigger water jackets. the fact is its just not true. ive proved it to myself and i will never spend the time again using one for a performance application. your wasting your time and money. your down 8-26cfm right outta the box. this info is all based off of "intake flow". if you wanna get into goood exhaust ports/flow.....well.....lets start another thread. thats a different story.:pop:
 
Yes they hit water often . 1 out of every 6 is junked, but they won't use anything else. I have not used the 12v head, just worked with people in the know. I do not know the source or the part number, just that the casting they use allows more flow.

You are also right in that a lot of the foreign heads are junk. I have seen heads warp more than .010" in the first 30 minutes of runtime and just the headgasket. I have also seen some really good ones out of a plant in Chine that makes Cummins parts in a joint venture with Cummins.

To keep money needed to be competitive in the 2.6" class reasonable for a larger group of people, Some kind of consensus on parts needs to be come to. Allowing 2.6" trucks that have 50k+ engines ruins it for a lot of average joes. I think that everybody should have to run a stock head or a certain out of the box charger. A class like this would put an emphasis on tuning and less on high cubic dollar displacement engines dominating.
This is really the issue here, making a class that the average joe can compete in.
The problem here is if you make a single turbo class, you cut out a lot of work for the turbo guys. You cut out all of the oddball castings and you would cut out a lot of work for the machinists and porting guys.

For the sport to be changed so that a larger cross section of the public can participate is the most pressing issue facing the sport. With the economy the way it is, the future of the sport is really resting on what rules are implemented for continued growth. That being said, I really think an all out 2.6" class is still needed.

Zach
 
My question is for anybody who has done it. How much hp is gained from a fully ported and polished head with the intake milled off and a large runner style intake bolted on. I would like to hear dyno numbers not my boost went from 45 psi to 38 psi and the charger lights 500 rpm sooner.
 
I have seen 50-60hp in some instances. I have talked to engine builders that have seen more and some that have seen less.

I think one thing that is important to remember is that it wil make little to no difference if the head is not a limiting factor. In other words, you will not see the gain if your 62mm charger is already maxed.
 
I would say the Hamilton head qualifies as an OEM replacement, since stock exhaust manifold and intake plate can be bolted onto his head. If you had to have custom manifolds and other custom parts to install the cylinder head, then I would say it would not qualify for an OEM replacement. As it has been mentioned before, you will spend less money to bolt a Hamilton head on than you will to have a factory Cummins head ported. There is also metal in the head, so it will be hold up better and last longer.
 
If you want to see where this will lead look at the 4.1 limited pro class from the last few years and what they have dealt with on cylinder heads. You guys keep wanting to allow parts to make more power that the oem drivetrain already cant take.
 
I agree on the 4.1 class. Everyone thinks you can bolt a better pump and 4.1 charger on a Super Farm and be competitive. The bottom end cannot handle the extra rpms, so you add a billet crank and some better rods, etc. etc. The Super Farms have to run a "box" turbo, but everyone sends them in for air mods or buy a $4000 Precision charger. The Super Farm class quickly went away from an entry level class, if you want to be competitive.
 
some guys may not agree but i think if you want a hot class go to something that dont hinder what you want to run. like a run what you got. when you have rules like oem that is what it means in a street class.
 
Hamilton Cams said:
Yes they hit water often . 1 out of every 6 is junked, but they won't use anything else. I have not used the 12v head, just worked with people in the know. I do not know the source or the part number, just that the casting they use allows more flow.

You are also right in that a lot of the foreign heads are junk. I have seen heads warp more than .010" in the first 30 minutes of runtime and just the headgasket. I have also seen some really good ones out of a plant in Chine that makes Cummins parts in a joint venture with Cummins.

To keep money needed to be competitive in the 2.6" class reasonable for a larger group of people, Some kind of consensus on parts needs to be come to. Allowing 2.6" trucks that have 50k+ engines ruins it for a lot of average joes. I think that everybody should have to run a stock head or a certain out of the box charger. A class like this would put an emphasis on tuning and less on high cubic dollar displacement engines dominating.
This is really the issue here, making a class that the average joe can compete in.
The problem here is if you make a single turbo class, you cut out a lot of work for the turbo guys. You cut out all of the oddball castings and you would cut out a lot of work for the machinists and porting guys.

For the sport to be changed so that a larger cross section of the public can participate is the most pressing issue facing the sport. With the economy the way it is, the future of the sport is really resting on what rules are implemented for continued growth. That being said, I really think an all out 2.6" class is still needed.

Zach
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An all out 2.6 class as in? If people want to run all out, like odl and what not, they need to just bump up to 3.0, plain and simple. The problem lies here is everyone wants a class for their product, or for their truck. Leave the rules alone for a few years, that will make it grow more than anything. You dont have to spend 50k a year to have a winning truck, plain and simple. Big dollar cubes are not winning. Yeah, it might be pricey to build a truck all at once and win the first year, but thats not the way to do it anyways. The last 4 years i might have spent 30k total on my truck, all years combined. Start out in workstock, and work your way up.

In the end result, rules are rules, if your head is allowed, then it is, if its not, then its not. Either way i dont see it changing the 2.6 class as we know it. Your kind of contridicting by saying we need an "all out" 2.6 class, yet you think we need out of the box chargers???? The sport needs to be left alone to grow, plain and simple. If you think "average joes" cant win, you couldnt be more wrong. It just takes a little more home work, and work, than just getting the checkbook out.
 
RobH said:
You dont have to spend 50k a year to have a winning truck, plain and simple. Big dollar cubes are not winning. Yeah, it might be pricey to build a truck all at once and win the first year, but thats not the way to do it anyways. The last 4 years i might have spent 30k total on my truck, all years combined. Start out in workstock, and work your way up.

.
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How can you say that you don’t have to spend a lot of money to win? I live 25 minutes from Adam hallien, he is the perfect example of this. I see him pull multiple times a week and aside from that random bad run he has, he is very rarely even close to being touched. If your not spending the money you will not beat him or the likes of his truck on a common basis.
This is also running against Web, Smoot, overmyer and truck that otherwise are runners. Trucks that usually place top 10 at SDX and other national scale events.... just my $.02
 
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