14mm ve pump

Seems to me that the higher lift cam plates only accelerate failure with the larger head/rotor.
 
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Only numbers on the DV are 017 and 622 or 022.

Any ideas on what these were originally in?
 
Why all the talk of bigger/different delivery valves?

We are draining case pressure, therefore it would seem that the issue is charge pump related, not delivery valve flow??
What did I miss? Someone point me in the right direction here.

A little time on my mill yesterday with an old pump case yesterday revealed what I always suspected- there is easily enough room for bigger/better charge pump.
(Think FAR outside the box, it can be done)
 
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by charge pump, do you mean the stock vane pump?

Ive also wondered why a larger stator could not be used with longer vanes... not by much, but enough for some extra volume

the case pressure drain seems like a mute point to many. I dont know how many people have case pressure guages, but like ive said before, I see some substantial drops in pressure under load, even with stock injectors.

I just got a pump re-seal kit and 354 spring in the mail, Im going to retain the front seal and see what running a un-regulated 2nd gen piston pump does to case pressure drops at some higher RPM's, and eventually with different injectors.

an Ideal timing curve is the big goal IMO, trying to keep the case pressure somewhere that would provide linear advance with rpm would be ideal, I asked KTA what he thought the idea timing curve would be and he said about 8* advance with every 1000rpm

tho I havent played with internal pump timing, so ive got not much of an idea what case pressures it would take to achive that advance.

say if the ideal pressures are only in the 120-160 psi range, that may not be good enought to acheive the volume to the H&R, due to the flow restrictions inside the VE
 
I'm sorry I didn't clarify the point. I was speaking of the stock internal vane pump.
Does anyone do any mods to that goofy pump? Or do they just feed it pressure and make it work?
 
The vane pump and internal feed passages are the real hold up, but a larger delivery valve will often shorten the duration of injection, which typically helps when there is a lack of fill time.
 
the front seal is the limiting factor for most. with the low interest in a VE performace as-is, even less people are interested in tearing their pumps down for vane pump mod's

Cumminsfever, what kind mod's are you thinking?
 
ahale2772 said:
the front seal is the limiting factor for most. with the low interest in a VE performace as-is, even less people are interested in tearing their pumps down for vane pump mod's

Cumminsfever, what kind mod's are you thinking?
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I don't claim to understand vane pumps. But it seems to me that if more "travel" were given to the vanes, more volume would be achieved. No?
Will do this mod to my own stuff and see what happens! Currently milling prototype parts to see how this would come out...

Smokem- MUCH thanx! I understand now why you would go for larger delivery valves.
 
ahale2772 said:
With the low interest in a VE performace as-is...
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That's why I am not doing anything more to my truck really. I figured after I got my 14mm, and Bill Gilbert and Josh made 550rwhp easy with older/homebuilt turbo setups, having a 600rwhp VE truck as a daily driver would be no big deal, and they'd be all over because of their simplicity, light weight, and fuel economy.

But VE performance just didn't take off like I thought it would. I think the fact people kept trying to put the 14mm heads on sled pullers and spinning them 4K didn't help much as far as public image is concerned...well that, and I underestimated how cheap 1st Gen guys are. For now, the future for 99% of the VE crowd will be 300-400 at the wheels, and trying to fix sagging doors and electrical issues. Which is fine.
 
Smokem said:
Seems to me that the higher lift cam plates only accelerate failure with the larger head/rotor.
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I didn't say higher lift.

Fast ramp, short duration.

And everybody who did a 4mm/14mm combo spun it to no end seizing it.

I personally think a 13mm, 3.2mm lift might be more beneficial than a 14/4, 14/2.8, 12/4...

The way I am going to get more out of the vane pump is this:

The outside "ring" that the vanes ride on is offset from the pump rotor. There is almost no clearance on the KSB side of the pump.

I will keep the clearance the same but slightly oval the side furthest from it. I will also cut the rotor deeper to accommodate the longer vanes needed. Also, by doubling the number of vanes, it will have a more consistent pressure at low to mid range rpm's. Since air is a fluid I think some of the same principles of turbo tech apply here. More compressor vanes will flow the air in a lower part of the map but kinda choke at high pressures.

Also, taking the stock fuel return fixed hole and running it through a regulator to mess with to find the best pressure ranges.
 
Honestly, if someone's making an all-out VE, I think KTA's rotor feed setup is pretty much mandatory, since it completely bypasses everything and lets you feed only the rotor with fuel. No worrying about any passage size besides one, and no worrying about any vane or outlet stuff as the stock items will be perfectly capable of simply controlling the timing.


It's catch is the need, and cost, for a external gear pump of some sort capable of supplying high pressures, but at that level you could probably blow that much on machinist work easily.

Until his feed setup has been tested and the weak link in it found it looks to easily be the best case scenario we have.

For anything below an all-out build, internal pumps mods can be considered, but until you're at the ~450-500hp level they don't seem to be needed.

IMHO of course.


Also, Jon, do you think there will be a problem with the extra vanes taking up potential volume within the pump?
 
I think 8 is overkill actually but I don't want to machine a new piece quite yet...

Screw it, I will make a 6 and 8 to see how it does. 8 maybe too much.
 
Tacoclaw said:
Honestly, if someone's making an all-out VE, I think KTA's rotor feed setup is pretty much mandatory, since it completely bypasses everything and lets you feed only the rotor with fuel.

For anything below an all-out build, internal pumps mods can be considered, but until you're at the ~450-500hp level they don't seem to be needed.
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I think the 14mm's have been pretty solid at 650rwhp w/o nitrous

A few people have been working on dual feed VE's for a while, I hope one shows up in the next few years :Cheer:
 
How much torque can one expect from a 650rwhp 14mmVE ? RWHP at 650 means about 800ish at the fly? With a big enough shot of nitrous is 1000rwhp possible?
 
oldestof11 said:
I personally think a 13mm, 3.2mm lift might be more beneficial than a 14/4, 14/2.8, 12/4...
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I think you are missing the point here;

Say the 14/2.8 - 13/3.2 - 12/4 flowed the equal amount of fuel, your choice using a 13mm plunger would move less fuel vs lift, inherently decreasing the injection rate. Why do you think that is a better idea?

oldestof11 said:
And everybody who did a 4mm/14mm combo spun it to no end seizing it.
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Our failure occured with a stock cam plate.
 
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Yeah, I was talking about 12mm's. You can push those to around 450-500, but much above that you're slipping into 14mm's territory. Even then, the 14mm are just a missed shift away from failure.

Though I'm hardly the person to do it, I'm waiting to see what comes of his feed setup. It just seems to eliminate almost all the headaches of the VE all at once. Who knows what a 12mm rotor could achieve with a similar setup and a better set of DVs. I wish I was in a better position to look into DV stuff. All this talk and explanation of them does make them seem like a valid consideration...

I prefer to keep stuff as reliable as possible, that's why I'm so interested in external stuff that lets these pumps work better.


Caddy, VE's move a lot of fuel down low. As long as you have the supporting air, or whatever injectables, down low the torque will be up there. I've seen very few VE dyno graphs that were under the 2:1 T:HP.
 
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Tacoclaw said:
Even then, the 14mm are just a missed shift away from failure.
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They're tougher than people think. I've had mine to 3,900-ish a couple of times on the dyno by mistake, and then once where I missed a shift (manual valvebody) and mine is still ok.

Stomp's even ran his dry a couple times. I think you could make pretty good power to 3,300-3,500rpm with a 14mm and still have it be reliable.
 
Smokem said:
I think you are missing the point here;

Say the 14/2.8 - 13/3.2 - 12/4 flowed the equal amount of fuel, your choice using a 13mm plunger would move less fuel vs lift, inherently decreasing the injection rate. Why do you think that is a better idea?
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The 14mm would be better.

BUT the 13mm might be able to live where the 14mm can't and still move more than the 12mm. Now, all of this is just hypothetical.

Smokem said:
Our failure occured with a stock cam plate.
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I know that. What I was saying is even with the 4mm cam plate, they are pushing it in territory where it would still seize even if it had the stock plate. No one really knows about the 4mm.

You still haven't answered my question. Faster ramp, shorter duration, stock lift cam plate, will it be better at higher RPMs?
 
Jon, good thinking on the vane pump, I was thinking the same. But I dont think you can enlargen 1 side of the stator and not the other without creationg some atronomical perssures, and maybe some damage. I think even if you took off say. 1/8 of an inch from the entire inside diameter of the stator ring, and machined the rotor to accept 1/8 of an inch longer vanes, you would probably see a substantial increase in volume, and I'm guessing the pressure would stay the same. you would have to keep the rotor Outside diameter the same size thou otherwise there would be no change besides a slight change in volume.

I dont think we want to increase case pressure, just create a stronger, more capable vane pump that will do better to maintain high pressures.

But I agree with Levi, eventually the vane pump will be insufficient, and a external feed to the plunger will be the best bet, probably easier than modifying the vane, and hoping it all works really.

I'm also very interested in the DV situation now, I had not thought about it untill now really. The DV's I just took out of my pump last night look much different than the ones you have JAyers93. I hope some Bosch guru pops in with some knowledge of the different dv's from different pumps. I will get the #'s off of my dv's asap (90' non-IC pump)

I'm gona buy a 14mm head and build my pump on my own:rockwoot:
 
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