2 stage/dual stage water to air for a daily driver

Ghostman said:
Ok I see what you your saying. Do you think it matters much if his intake temps fluctuate some, say even 100°. Factory does it for sure with a single a/a. Now not saying that's the best, but how are you going to adjust, and regulate according to outside temps as well?


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Damn. You would ask me to do all of that thermodynamics BS wouldn't you.

Without any real thought, I would think 100° would be substantial on something running between 100 and roughly 350 degrees outlet temp.
100 degrees IAT. I have a chart in a book of IAT vs flow vs HP somewhere. I guess I will have to try and find it.

Maxxforce engines maintain between 100 and 150 IAT on the 3 models I have gotten to log. This is for emissions control. You may have access to a schematic already but the low temp radiator circuit has two flow control valves to regulate system outlet temps. They run through an ATTAC in addition to the liquid to air cooler.

I didn't mean to come off as critical of anyone. Just curious if thought had been given to coolant temp regulation.

Monkey Fist Rage
 
biggy238 said:
Damn. You would ask me to do all of that thermodynamics BS wouldn't you.

Without any real thought, I would think 100° would be substantial on something running between 100 and roughly 350 degrees outlet temp.
100 degrees IAT. I have a chart in a book of IAT vs flow vs HP somewhere. I guess I will have to try and find it.

Maxxforce engines maintain between 100 and 150 IAT on the 3 models I have gotten to log. This is for emissions control. You may have access to a schematic already but the low temp radiator circuit has two flow control valves to regulate system outlet temps. They run through an ATTAC in addition to the liquid to air cooler.

I didn't mean to come off as critical of anyone. Just curious if thought had been given to coolant temp regulation.

Monkey Fist Rage
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Well someone has to do the math and I sure don't know how lol.


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biggy238 said:
Damn. You would ask me to do all of that thermodynamics BS wouldn't you.

Without any real thought, I would think 100° would be substantial on something running between 100 and roughly 350 degrees outlet temp.
100 degrees IAT. I have a chart in a book of IAT vs flow vs HP somewhere. I guess I will have to try and find it.

Maxxforce engines maintain between 100 and 150 IAT on the 3 models I have gotten to log. This is for emissions control. You may have access to a schematic already but the low temp radiator circuit has two flow control valves to regulate system outlet temps. They run through an ATTAC in addition to the liquid to air cooler.

I didn't mean to come off as critical of anyone. Just curious if thought had been given to coolant temp regulation.

Monkey Fist Rage
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I still don't get it lol. What are you trying to say?

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Looks like they went up I think they were cheaper than that. If i was to pay someone for a 4000hp intercooler it would be this one from berry motorsports.
 

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madmikeismad said:
I still don't get it lol. What are you trying to say?

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If the coolant is moving too fast, it isn't exposed to the coolers long enough to work like it should.

Monkey Fist Rage
 
biggy238 said:
If the coolant is moving too fast, it isn't exposed to the coolers long enough to work like it should.

Monkey Fist Rage
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So maybe that one molecule is moving too fast to pick up X amount of heat/energy, but the 10 that come in behind it will pick up the slack? I don't see how too much flow is bad. The air passing through the other side of the wall doesn't know how fast the waters moving, just that there is something there pulling heat away.


Also for that that CVR pump, from CVR:
"They are tested at 14.5v, 55 gpm at 9 psi static pressure. Operating temp is usually arounf 220 - 240 degrees. The electric motor itself can handle higher temperatures."
 
madmikeismad said:
So maybe that one molecule is moving too fast to pick up X amount of heat/energy, but the 10 that come in behind it will pick up the slack? I don't see how too much flow is bad. The air passing through the other side of the wall doesn't know how fast the waters moving, just that there is something there pulling heat away.


Also for that that CVR pump, from CVR:
"They are tested at 14.5v, 55 gpm at 9 psi static pressure. Operating temp is usually arounf 220 - 240 degrees. The electric motor itself can handle higher temperatures."
Click to expand...

It's almost the same theory of removing your thermostat and having your engine overheat, if the coolant doesn't stay in the radiator long enough to be cooled it will just pick up more heat as it passes through the engine and the cycle continues. I think is what he is getting at.
 
6.4 F-350 said:
It's almost the same theory of removing your thermostat and having your engine overheat, if the coolant doesn't stay in the radiator long enough to be cooled it will just pick up more heat as it passes through the engine and the cycle continues. I think is what he is getting at.
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He isn't talking about the exchange of cooling the water he is talking about the exchange when cooling the air charge. Never heard of an engine overheating without a thermostat?


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Ghostman said:
He isn't talking about the exchange of cooling the water he is talking about the exchange when cooling the air charge. Never heard of an engine overheating without a thermostat?


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Same process, I just tried to put it in simpler terms. Try it once, coolant flows to fast though the raidiator and never cools. I tried it once on a truck and it actually overheated faster than with the bad thermostat in, put a new one in and never had another problem.
 
Ghostman said:
He isn't talking about the exchange of cooling the water he is talking about the exchange when cooling the air charge. Never heard of an engine overheating without a thermostat?


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Same here. but I have had them get stuck open before and the truck never gets warm.

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Ghostman said:
He isn't talking about the exchange of cooling the water he is talking about the exchange when cooling the air charge. Never heard of an engine overheating without a thermostat?


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Which "he"?

If you don't cool the water adequately, what is it going to do?

I was hoping one of the Dyno guys would chime in about IAT

Monkey Fist Rage
 
biggy238 said:
Which "he"?

If you don't cool the water adequately, what is it going to do?

I was hoping one of the Dyno guys would chime in about IAT

Monkey Fist Rage
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Lol i don't know anymore. Y'all are all confusing me. From my understanding to cool water you would need to pump fast enough to create a turbulent state inside the heat exchanger. Adequate air flow to cool the water is necessary also. I don't think you could pump the water fast enough. I see it the same way for pumping the water for the air charge cooler. The faster the better, as in the water is turbulent again and each molecule has a chance to come in contact with the air charge cooler and exchange heat. But I'm no thermal engineer. This is just what I know from my own research etc. I could be way wrong.


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The cooling system will NOT lose efficiency if the cooling medium moves too fast. Mike is correct, the air flowing through the core cannot tell how fast the water is moving.

There are some possible issues to look out for however:

The water moves so fast that it causes accelerated erosion of the heat exchanger core.

The water is heated by the pump which moves it.
 
I don't see the pump heating as an issue as these pumps seem pretty high end and engineered, but so is a lot of the other stuff we use/break LOL
 
RyanMayo said:
The cooling system will NOT lose efficiency if the cooling medium moves too fast. Mike is correct, the air flowing through the core cannot tell how fast the water is moving.
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it can lose efficiency- Biggy is correct on all accounts, there becomes a limit to the amount of heat energy imparted on the cooling fluid based on a few conditions - including but not limited to thermal conductivity and flow velocity through the exchanger.

Now it may be the case that the water pump can not physically exceed the flow velocity through the heat exchanger to allow this to happen, but that is unknown at the moment.

However, the system would have to be designed for worst case scenario since the operation of the system as a whole is not steady-state - the intake charge is constantly changing temperature.
 
Thank you.
I had other things going on and couldn't come back to the topic.

Monkey Fist Rage
 
Do what ever you want I guess, but I researched it heavily a few years ago and that's what I came up with. Primarily driven by a Ford engineer who showed me research data from when they were working on the gen 2 lightning motor.
 
I think what is better said, and for sake of not ****ting up the thread -

I would find the minimum flow rate pump that will effectively do its job with this particular setup. Now where the math or the testing behind that falls.... should not really matter.

Mo powa
mo betta
racetruck.
 
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