Are common rail trucks going to ruin diesel motorsports?

I don't think they will ruin it but the stupid kids might, the freeze plug deal is not new, I had that issue a long time ago.

I personally can never see a C/R taking over unless they come up with individual cylinder tuning. I'll agree on the too much carnage issue, glad I haven't had that issue.

Jim
 
Forrest Nearing said:
the only way they're going to ruin it is because every frat douche on earth can spend 10 minutes loading up a smoke monster tune and go blowing smoke everywhere
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Right, cause that's any different than every jack leg redneck that can afford a 12 valve now that they can be had for <$10K throwing a set of 370 inj. in for a couple hundred bucks, remove a plate and leave the anemic stock charger on, and blow smoke as thick as you want for as long as they stay in the throttle. Weak argument dude. :blahblah1: Try again. :stab:
 
Timbeaux38 said:
Show me a CR that moves more fuel than even a built 13mm pump and we will talk...
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talk to Jeff, he did some calculations and figured it out. It's not how much fuel is moved, it's how the fuel is dealt with
 
RedPuller said:
The main thing IMO is that we need an injection map that gets rid of the post "main" injections. From what I have seen it's that last injection event on the power stroke that causes all the problems of melting pistons on hopped up CRs. Besides that's just an emissions injection event anyway, no need to have it in performance CRs. $.02

Joe
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It's already been tested, and the first results at least, didn't help in any way. But who knows, maybe with more people giving it a shot, someone will come up with something that works.
 
Power potential aside. I am more concerned with relibility at 800+hp. Not really concerned with how reliable moms '03 is with a chip and an air filter. I have seen alot of trucks down with valve seat, block, and burned piston issues. All common rail. How often do you see a 700-900 hp p7100 or VP truck burn 3 out of 6 pistons up?
 
RonA said:
Power potential aside. I am more concerned with relibility at 800+hp. Not really concerned with how reliable moms '03 is with a chip and an air filter. I have seen alot of trucks down with valve seat, block, and burned piston issues. All common rail. How often do you see a 700-900 hp p7100 or VP truck burn 3 out of 6 pistons up?
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Well, I did melt mine down but, the truck was basically stock. Too much foot and not enough air.

Since then I've had 700hp+ and have raced it for over 2 years that way with no melt down issue. This on a single causing my EGT's to be very high.... easily 1600F by the 1/8th.

Being careful with programming and not holding those EGT for extended periods has had a lot to do with avoiding a melt down.

I think they're being over timed with a incorrect ratio of fuel to air which is really helping the melt downs.

The CR system is atomizing the fuel so much at these higher psi's, it's creating a much hotter burn than the older trucks are capable of.
 
SmokeShow said:
Right, cause that's any different than every jack leg redneck that can afford a 12 valve now that they can be had for <$10K throwing a set of 370 inj. in for a couple hundred bucks, remove a plate and leave the anemic stock charger on, and blow smoke as thick as you want for as long as they stay in the throttle. Weak argument dude. :blahblah1: Try again. :stab:
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I don't think that he was generalizing on just common rails, but Diesels in general..... Look around folks! CARB and organizations are watching each and every one of our moves.... Even if it's not happening in their state. Sorry to Derail this post; But.... That will be the down fall of Diesel Motorsports!

RonA: I wouldn't argue that most 800 Horsepower Commonrail owners know the risks and reliability issues that seem to plague to the Commonrail world. Same thing goes for hardcore VP44 addicts and any other platform... Some problems are more costly than others, and there are quite a few people out there that have accepted it.
 
Jim Fulmer said:
I don't think they will ruin it but the stupid kids might, the freeze plug deal is not new, I had that issue a long time ago.

I personally can never see a C/R taking over unless they come up with individual cylinder tuning. I'll agree on the too much carnage issue, glad I haven't had that issue.

Jim
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Interesting. Why would this be needed and can you provide an example please?

The only thing I can think of is right now with the crappy OEM intake, cylinder 1 and 6 are starved for consistent air, therefore you may wish to deal with that programming differently.
 
SmokeShow said:
Right, cause that's any different than every jack leg redneck that can afford a 12 valve now that they can be had for <$10K throwing a set of 370 inj. in for a couple hundred bucks, remove a plate and leave the anemic stock charger on, and blow smoke as thick as you want for as long as they stay in the throttle. Weak argument dude. :blahblah1: Try again. :stab:
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very different... rednecks have been able to do that w/ 12v's for a long time...

but w/ CR's being able to make 450-475rwhp in 5 minutes time, it's a FAR sight different from someone having to actually turn wrenches, install injectors, etc.
 
I think it has to do alot with the ease of power. As stated 600+ with a cr isn't all that hard. Used to be the people that could get 600+ knew what they were doing or they wouldn't have that much hp. That being said my pyro has been 2000+ several times and my pistons look brand new, everyone I know that has melted one was the type of person that didn't know when to let out.
 
I think Triton is onto something with his theory of the melt downs and CR trucks. Combustion temps might be radically higher at a peak than that of a lower pressure mech. system. Reasonable rational worth consideration anyways.


C-ya
 
Looking at reliability and costs related to reliability, how do they compare. How many CR's bit the dust recently versus how many VP and P7100's.
 
how many 600 hp CR are there in relation to how many 12V? same qusetion for 700, 800, 900, 1000? I'd say there are just as many if not more CR trucks at a higher level by this time hence the more often occurance of failure. The higher HP mech. trucks are less street friendly because they can't be turned down as easily and street driven like a CR truck. So the power is jacked up for dyno, racing, pulling, playing, etc. So yeah, you can build one up more and still have a street truck so that's what more people have these days I'd imagine. So by sheer percentages, I'd say it's close, there's just more CR trucks at elevated HP levels so the number may be higher, but closer to equal on a percentage basis?

Just a guess.
 
RedPuller said:
The main thing IMO is that we need an injection map that gets rid of the post "main" injections. From what I have seen it's that last injection event on the power stroke that causes all the problems of melting pistons on hopped up CRs. Besides that's just an emissions injection event anyway, no need to have it in performance CRs. $.02

Joe
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Actually the way it was explained to me was the pre-main shot is for emissions and noise control. A little diesel is easier to start a fire, then you have a fire going when the main shot hits resulting in a more complete burn. The gradual lead up to the combustion vs one big all out combustion like my 12 valve is what makes it so quiet. The post main event is for getting more torque. Part of what helps make a diesel more torque than a gasser is a slower, longer burn. By extending the burn time with an additional shot of fuel, you should get more torque.

Now my personal opinion, 3 shots I think is about right. Quiet and torquey. The 5 shots the 6.7, LMM and late 6.4/6.7 P-strokes is too much, and the 1 on the rest creates noise and slightly less torque.
 
triton said:
talk to Jeff, he did some calculations and figured it out. It's not how much fuel is moved, it's how the fuel is dealt with
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The Schied rail has a 13mm pump on it Ty... I doubt that a CR system will make more power.
 
I think it takes a lot more tuning, testing, and careful selection of parts to build an 800 hp 12 valve. Thus it takes much longer to build/get the combination just right. Which means a high HP 12valve owner probably has more "seat time" to learn and understand when to let out, when to slow down, and how far the motor can be pushed.

A lot of the "melt down" owners are new to diesel performance or are new to CR performance. If it took years to build an 800 hp truck, the owner would have years of lower HP experience to draw upon and protect the motor.


Example: I ran my truck well into the red zone on the temp gauge towing a little 8-9K trailer with just an Edge Comp on level 2 with no gauges or sense of how much is too much. When I was first learning about my truck, a 60hp adder almost toasted my engine.

I can comfortably tow 10-15K with +100 to +250hp and never get it hot. Why, I've got a lot more experience and pay attention to noises, gauges, and other warning signs. If I had my same build 4 years ago when I had that just an Edge Comp, i would have blown the motor.

And like others have said about Common Rails, a few pushes of a button and BAM +230 hp. Stack another box and BAM +300-350 hp.
 
SmokeShow said:
...... The higher HP mech. trucks are less street friendly because they can't be turned down as easily and street driven like a CR truck. So the power is jacked up for dyno, racing, pulling, playing, etc. ......
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I can get a valet switch to take me from 450 to 220 in the time it takes the electrical signal to go from the switch in the cab to the solenoid on the AFC.
 
I dont think that the common rail will ruin the diesel work but the punk kids will what to blow smoke at every intersetion and burn out where in doesnt belong. it could be that since the CR is the hot new thing on the market you will hear about it more than the p pump, 12v and vp. All I can say is that the with the current problem that some people are have with common rails it as made me think the Idea of getting a Common rail and I have a VP.
 
Timbeaux38 said:
The Schied rail has a 13mm pump on it Ty... I doubt that a CR system will make more power.
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I think if a CR injector can be designed to deliver the fuel ( with the atomization a CR can create ) 12v/24v injectors don't have a chance. It just might be possible with a piezo injector.

You of all people shouldn't doubt the ingenuity people have !!
 
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triton said:
I think if a CR injector can be designed to deliver the fuel ( with the atomization a CR can create ) 12v/24v injectors don't have a chance. It just might be possible with a piezo injector.

You of all people should doubt the ingenuity people have !!
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I'm not doubting anyone's ingenuity, I'm saying that as of this time, you can strap 4 CP3's on that rail and it slows down.... Period.
 
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