Are headstuds REALLY that nessisary?

I was told you need studs for firerings otherwise you can't crush them to get a good seal.
 
150 foot pounds of bolt/stud torque?
I'd start to worry about distorting the bolt hole boss area and causing deck sealing issues there.
Then again, maybe I'm an idiot for even mentioning it. :nail:


Mark.
 
My question is, if you have the block all the way down should a person have it cut for fire rings?


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syrupdawg said:
Wrong....we do it on every street truck...why spend the money on them when we don't have a head gasket issue. I bet I can name 10 STREET trucks right now with stock head bolts that fart out more power than your truck makes.
Matter of fact a 2 seperate 12 valves with the original head gaskets (stock bolts) one with 315k and the other with 230k miles that run mid 11sec 1/4s. Bone stock engines minus turbos, injectors, and spring kit.
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But that's not what was asked was it? You were asked about bolts and fire rings, not how much trucks can fart, or how much power my truck makes.

Monkey Fist Rage
 
syrupdawg said:
Wrong....we do it on every street truck...why spend the money on them when we don't have a head gasket issue. I bet I can name 10 STREET trucks right now with stock head bolts that fart out more power than your truck makes.
Matter of fact a 2 seperate 12 valves with the original head gaskets (stock bolts) one with 315k and the other with 230k miles that run mid 11sec 1/4s. Bone stock engines minus turbos, injectors, and spring kit.
Click to expand...

You have never had a gasket failure doing this? What about your customers?
 
biggy238 said:
But that's not what was asked was it? You were asked about bolts and fire rings, not how much trucks can fart, or how much power my truck makes.

Monkey Fist Rage
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Well in that case before my race truck was made a full race truck it was driven for 2 1/2 years with fire rings and stock bolts. Never an issue

Darrens half ton was driven nearly daily and what he drove on long trips 927 HP, fire rings and stock bolts

Mickey Davis engine that was in his daily driver, then half ton, then back in his daily driver 75x hp, stock bolts fire ringed

Elliot butler race/street/pull truck I have no idea on HP but its mid 6 to 700 atleast . Stock bolts and fire ringed.

Richie Hawthorne twin turbo street truck over 700hp never been on dyno but SOP feel has it over 700 (not accurate I know) stock bolts fire ringed

Etc etc these are just off the top of my head and people I know. There are a lot of them that I don't know.

Look I'm not trying to impress people I'm just telling you what we use works for us. If you don't believe it makes no difference to me.

On edit: I did answer the question I was asked. Yes stock head bolts do work with fire rings.
 
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Its not that i don't believe you. It's the "that's what blah blah s truck has" when that isn't the only step being taken to retain compression.
And I'm not saying YOU did anything wrong or misleading, but when the discussion comes up, it isn't as simple as whether the studs are worth it or not when the extra steps of additional machine work are being taken and mixed into the discussion.



Monkey Fist Rage
 
Ghostman said:
It's no fun when one breaks off in the block and you can't get it out.
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I had this happen when I was over torquing my stock bolts. Luckily about 1/4" was sticking out of the block. I just tore it back apart and 20 minutes later it was back together. I'm still running stock bolts, but I'm not pushing a lot of boost drive pressure. So I'm far from pushing the limits.
 
I used shcs 14mm @ 150# on the mains & head, honed with a girdle & hone plate.There was no movement at retqs Ill take these before studs any day.
DSC00029.jpg
 
renopker said:
I used shcs 14mm @ 150# on the mains & head, honed with a girdle & hone plate.There was no movement at retqs Ill take these before studs any day.
DSC00029.jpg
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I'm guessing stock vs the 14mm. I've read that 14mms can destort the block not sure if that's true or not. What exactly is involved when stepping up to 14mm? I assume it's very important to have the drill carefully and precisely straight. Or is it pretty easy? I also assume the head must be removed. Would the holes in the head gaskets be big enough for the larger bolts? :confused:
 
My 98' daily driver now has 10 months and roughly 15,000 miles on stock bolts @ 140 ft lbs with orings. I run 22* timing, makes a touch over 500 HP/1200 Ft-Lbs. It was actually holding the same amount of power before with the stock head gasket and over-torqued stock bolts @ 145 ft lbs, but I had a massive head failure and had to remove and replace the cylinder head so I took the opportunity to oring the block while it was apart.

Do studs work 100% without failures - NO.
Do headbolts work 100% without failures - NO.
 
I would like to hear people chime in on these threads that have had studs that failed and/or head bolts.

I have had two trucks with studs, only one oringed. No failures yet
One truck stock bolts (not re torqued). Failure
All street trucks.

Something like that would be helpful.
 
It amazes me some can do everything right and blow a gasket while others run a bunch of timing and stock bolts on a stock gasket and get by with it. I ran fire rings and standard studs torqued to 145 and blew the gasket a bunch of times. The head was flattened when fire ringed and the block was checked with a straight edge. There surely is some things being done others aren't doing.
 
Clean bolt holes, clean flat surfaces, 2 beers between torques. Lots of luck??
 
Meh. If it's keystone light I'm not drinking it. Ice is another story. Worked best with Pabst!
 
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syrupdawg said:
Well in that case before my race truck was made a full race truck it was driven for 2 1/2 years with fire rings and stock bolts. Never an issue

Darrens half ton was driven nearly daily and what he drove on long trips 927 HP, fire rings and stock bolts

Mickey Davis engine that was in his daily driver, then half ton, then back in his daily driver 75x hp, stock bolts fire ringed

Elliot butler race/street/pull truck I have no idea on HP but its mid 6 to 700 atleast . Stock bolts and fire ringed.

Richie Hawthorne twin turbo street truck over 700hp never been on dyno but SOP feel has it over 700 (not accurate I know) stock bolts fire ringed

Etc etc these are just off the top of my head and people I know. There are a lot of them that I don't know.

Look I'm not trying to impress people I'm just telling you what we use works for us. If you don't believe it makes no difference to me.

On edit: I did answer the question I was asked. Yes stock head bolts do work with fire rings.
Click to expand...
This guy is the reason I'm using stock bolts, I plan on building my truck in the next year. I believe as long as my drive pressure is low I'll be fine on stock bolts. And I blow a gasket, oh well... Lol
 
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