Borg Warner test the BATMOWHEEL

Response to NickTF

I'm the general manager of HTT and I personally know the engineer who preformed the test and I can assure you that the results are accurate and came directly from BorgWarner.

If the results were not conclusive, then there is no way BorgWarner would have released the data. Doing so would put them in a heap of legal trouble and would seriously damage their credibility. I've attached a photo of the items tested.
 

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It appears there is a billet wheel in there besides the bat. What did it do?
 
NickTF said:
Taylor, in all seriousness can the source of this testing be confirmed/revealed? Thus far Bullseye has suggested clever photoshop. I have no opinion, just looking to get to the bottom of this.

If BW tested this I suppose there is nothing else to say. A better reply than "our competition photo shopped it" will hopefully follow suit.
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As someone who has visited the BWTS facility several times, I can say with all confidence that this is NOT a photoshop job. We've received this data recently as well, and it is lab-quality test data, generated in a state-of-the-art gas test cell. All of the data posted matches completely with the version of the map we've received.

This is not a 'questionable' test process; it's O.E.-driven, laboratory-grade testing.

That facility houses numerous gas test stands, all computer-controlled, as well as several high-horsepower dyno cells. Upon my last entry, we had to weave around two 5-axis CNC machining centers that had been placed there and were busy churning out prototype parts, along with quite a few similar machine tools.

I would submit that if the world's largest engine manufacturers (Deere, Caterpillar, Ford, GM, VW/Audi, Porsche) all have confidence in the test data that's generated here, you probably can rest assured that it's accurate.

For reference, I work for a BWTS Franchise Distributor and EFR/AirWerks Master Distributor; I'm comfortable in validating that this data is correct.
 
I'm just gonna hold my breath until the BatMoPeople show up with their own map to debate the validity of the BW test results.

Oh, wait...
 
Answer me this: why was this information being concealed for so long? If the BatMoWheel was such a better design, I wouldn't be keeping the MAP's a secret.
 
LOL...photo-chopped? That's the best they could come up with?

Now in its defence the Batblow is winning on the left side. And it almost always seems when you look at a map that has that bulge to the left it costs the upper right.

Would have been nice to see the ETR wheel in the mix.
 
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DISTURBED said:
Not directed at you.

Truth is, is Bullseye has had a long time to release these numbers. They haven't. Why? If they were as badass as they claim, why not release the maps to better sales and impress potential customers. Im betting the numbers really suck and if released they would have a lot of mad customers who bought into the hype and now want their money back.

On their FB page they say oh well go ask so and so how much power they picked up over a cast wheel. Well those numbers can be manipulated as well. Dyno can be made to read anything they want it to. I like hearing about the normal guys swapping them in back to back dyno tests and hearing the results verse a bullseye dealers bias claim. The normal Joe trying to squeak every hp out of their setups to get a leg up on the competition and arent seeing the increase are the guys to believe. They actually bought it with the intention of making power and not selling chargers. All this still isnt any indication as to why the crapmo keeps blowing up after little to no run time but i will say this. I havent heard of many blowing on a dmax but more so on the cummins if their is any weight to that.
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Another great point.

nwpadmax said:
Danville has always said that the wheels come on a little quicker and I can buy that by the surge line difference, but they definitely are giving up the very top end to do it.

Widening the map is having your cake and eating it too, takes a lot of engineering to pick up a few lbs/min either way. Makes you wonder where we'll be 20 years from now...
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I did not realize these wheels were not holding up, probably because everything ive seen with the dmax crowd points to guys loving them. But i guess if a guy running a street truck loves a batmo wheel because it gets lit a little faster.... hes not likely to notice the lack of flow up top.

Any way ya slice it, interesting development that obviously alot of guys saw coming, while the rest of us newbs or sheep were buying into the raving everyone was doing.
 
@WUnerwood

There are very few companies that have the capability to produce a compressor MAP. You really need the resources of a BorgWarner, Garrett or Cummins to produce this kind of detailed data

Also, BorgWarner's testing was just completed last week. For us aftermarket distributors, this is a real coup. Normally, the test stands are dedicated to OEM testing.
 
WUnderwood said:
Answer me this: why was this information being concealed for so long? If the BatMoWheel was such a better design, I wouldn't be keeping the MAP's a secret.
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X2 they have no maps.

a) cost
b) time
c) have to send to a 3rd party unless you want your aero package hand-delivered to the company who could crush you

and...

d) don't think they need one because anecdotal hype is cheaper and quicker. Who wants real data anyways? :rolleyes: "They're just the pickup people"...


In their defense, PTE doesn't bother with maps either, but the opportunity to real-world test in the gasser drag racing world is a LOT better than with the diesel trucks. Cars can make multiple passes without breaking so much crap.
 
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Thanks for the replies validating the data. They are appreciated!

I too would be interested in seeing an ET-R wheel tossed in that mix of testing.
 
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1pieceatatime. said:
I did not realize these wheels were not holding up, probably because everything ive seen with the dmax crowd points to guys loving them. But i guess if a guy running a street truck loves a batmo wheel because it gets lit a little faster.... hes not likely to notice the lack of flow up top.
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And there you have it.

Danville has some competitive pullers but I bet 90% of the BatMoBuyers are hot street trucks.

And to be fair, you would need a pretty wild build to tell the difference between these 2 wheels...everything else would need to be in place to make near 1000 hp to take advantage of the small difference. Any one part of the system working or not could make you lean one way or the other.

I'm surprised Mr. Broviak has not shown up in this thread yet.
 
nwpadmax said:
And there you have it.

Danville has some competitive pullers but I bet 90% of the BatMoBuyers are hot street trucks.

And to be fair, you would need a pretty wild build to tell the difference between these 2 wheels...everything else would need to be in place to make near 1000 hp to take advantage of the small difference. Any one part of the system working or not could make you lean one way or the other.

I'm surprised Mr. Broviak has not shown up in this thread yet.
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Seat of the pants might not feel much different in a "street" truck but the flow difference at 60% efficiency is about 9 lbs/min, which is huge. To put that in perspective, the flow difference between a BW 63mm wheel and a 66mm wheel is roughly 5 lbs/min.

More importantly, everyone should feel the difference in their wallet, which, for most people,is in the seat of their pants.
 
Im sure bullseye is just happy to have a map now :hehe: :hehe: *clicks eraser button*
 
jman65 said:
Seat of the pants might not feel much different in a "street" truck but the flow difference at 60% efficiency is about 9 lbs/min, which is huge. To put that in perspective, the flow difference between a BW 63mm wheel and a 66mm wheel is roughly 5 lbs/min.

More importantly, everyone should feel the difference in their wallet, which, for most people,is in the seat of their pants.
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I hear ya, but we're talking 7% waaaaaaay out near the end of the map, so I don't think it's going to be as obvious as you're making it unless you have a no-holds-barred engine.

Both wheels are running out of gas up there and making some very hot air. Intercooler differences could alone make a bigger impact.

Just sayin'. There is some danger in making mountains out of molehills on compressor maps. Other parts of the system could make these feel identical in the real world. It ain't like you're going to get beat from every stoplight now by some guy with a normal BW wheel.

Whether or not you're willing to pay for BatMo is an individual decision.
 
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Joesixpack said:
Now in its defence the Batblow is winning on the left side. And it almost always seems when you look at a map that has that bulge to the left it costs the upper right.
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I agree, but in my setup (and I'm guessing in yours as well), the only time I get close to the surge line, on the primary, is when I chop the throttle. :-) Now if you were using this as a single...

Look at the PR difference between the two maps at peak efficiency. That's pretty huge (I'm guessing you already saw that...).

Paul
 
jman65 said:
Also, for those who are interested, Garrett did some head to head comparisons of a cast wheel versus a billet wheel. Here are the results:

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/Garrett_Fully_Machined_Compressor_Wheels
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This. This article is so full of win, it's dripping on to the floor of the internet.

Again, an O.E. turbo manufacturer has access to test procedures that can point out even the most minute of differences, not because they just feel like they should, or because it's 'cool', but because the O.E. engine manufacturer absolutely REQUIRES it from them in order to award a production contract.

Anyone who thinks that the major turbocharger manufacturers haven't tried virtually every design concept imaginable isn't paying attention. These companies have TEAMS of engineers who are devoted to aerodynamics, and the capability to prove or disprove how valid these designs are.

In some cases, design changes can yield gains in flow or efficiency, but sometimes, doing so can compromise long-term durability and safety, and obviously, a company like Honeywell or Borg Warner isn't going to sacrifice either, so a gap can be left in the marketplace for a 'better mousetrap'.
 
The peak airflow #'s arent that surprising to me considering comparing a 6 blade wheel to a 7 blade , i was much more surprised to see the results in the lower P/R's , I would expected the BATMO to do better in that area of the MAP . In the Duramax world we haven't had many failures on the BATMO stuff , but we run them at much lower P/R's than the Cummins guys do.
 
Funny how they use a machined billet wheel due to the cost savings...
 
paulb said:
I agree, but in my setup (and I'm guessing in yours as well), the only time I get close to the surge line, on the primary, is when I chop the throttle. :-) Now if you were using this as a single...

Look at the PR difference between the two maps at peak efficiency. That's pretty huge (I'm guessing you already saw that...).

Paul
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Yeah the single guys is what I had in mind with that.

MFSPSTurbo said:
This. This article is so full of win, it's dripping on to the floor of the internet.

Again, an O.E. turbo manufacturer has access to test procedures that can point out even the most minute of differences, not because they just feel like they should, or because it's 'cool', but because the O.E. engine manufacturer absolutely REQUIRES it from them in order to award a production contract.

Anyone who thinks that the major turbocharger manufacturers haven't tried virtually every design concept imaginable isn't paying attention. These companies have TEAMS of engineers who are devoted to aerodynamics, and the capability to prove or disprove how valid these designs are.

In some cases, design changes can yield gains in flow or efficiency, but sometimes, doing so can compromise long-term durability and safety, and obviously, a company like Honeywell or Borg Warner isn't going to sacrifice either, so a gap can be left in the marketplace for a 'better mousetrap'.
Click to expand...


Like Precision. They made a name working off the Garrett hot side and cut out a pretty good niche.
 
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