Borg Warner test the BATMOWHEEL

Test data from an independent tester would be ideal in a day and age where lies are so prevalent. Or perhaps lie's isn't the word but sales gimmicks. However, one is more inclined to believe BW, Holset, or Honeywell data considering their OEM production slots would be on the line over potential false data. Overall, I'm inclined to side with BW on this issue. They've shown their maps on so many turbos yet Bullseye well yeah... BW also painstakingly goes to all ends to improve even minute details as we see their wheels updated every so often to show advancements in technology and design. This being said, one can see where they'd be inclined to fudge the numbers a bit. But I doubt that's the case over what could be a potentially large defamation lawsuit if they were wrong.
 
90% of the products pushed as "upgrades", "performance enhancements", and even whole "setups" on forums like this have no factual data to back up the claims.

Most of it is all "mental". Meaning, when someone spends X,XXX dollars their brain tells them it has to be better regardless of whether it is or not. There is NO WAY the avg. guy can determine that his turbo is now spooling 100 rpms sooner driving around on the street looking at a boost gauge:doh:
 
90% of the products pushed as "upgrades", "performance enhancements", and even whole "setups" on forums like this have no factual data to back up the claims.

One of the only reasons I'm considering using a banks intake on the new truck. They actually provide data. True or not...at least is looks true. $.02 Probably just a photochop.
 
One of the only reasons I'm considering using a banks intake on the new truck. They actually provide data. True or not...at least is looks true. $.02 Probably just a photochop.

I hear that banks uses nawwzzz to make fancy dyno charts.
2a3loj.jpg
 
Turbo testing

Wow is all I have to say to this thread! Apparently I missed a memo or something??? You all are in luck here as I just so happen to have spent the last 2 days straight on the dyno with a truck that the customer is looking for max power with his current motor setup. Sled puller from the south with an Industrial Injection built LB7 with dual 85% cp3's and a set of Exergy 185% injectors tha we installed. It showed up with a GTX4508R on it and the customer was not happy with the performance of it at all. Left the truck with me to see what I could get out of it for him with my recommended charger setup. Obviously as many of you know I use the batmo's almost exclusively becuase they have worked great for my customer's and I despite some of your opinions. Regardless I tried every turbo combination I felt would net the best power with his parts and my tuning. I tuned the GTX4508R and then proceeded to start swapping turbos around. When I found the exhaust side that matched this combo the best then we started swapping compressors around. I have attached the most relavent info to this thread about the cast 80mm vs Batmo80. I ran all the graphed runs with the same exhaust side combination(96mm turbine in a DP 1.10 T4 custom housing), my tuning, dyno load file, and etc. only difference was compressors. This is how I lead my customers to the best choices for their trucks and I feel 100% right in my decisions and so do my customers. 99% of my customers run Batmo's and they don't win by accident but apparently I am putting them at huge dissadvantage according to some people on the internet! We race in the real world not on paper so I'll stick with my "real world" results anyday of the week!
Bullseye does have a gas test stand and use it alot to get us where we are today. And as far as them blowing up left and right like some would like you to believe, I have spent close to $200k this year alone with them and can count on one hand the failures we have had so I am confused. If anyone was going to see a large amount of failure it is me! I am very happy with their products and am not changing what I'm doing becuase Borg posted a graph that says their's is better. I believe in results, nothing more and nothing less. You can continue your flaming, I have posted what I know to be fact and you can do with it what you want.$.02
 

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Wow is all I have to say to this thread! Apparently I missed a memo or something??? You all are in luck here as I just so happen to have spent the last 2 days straight on the dyno with a truck that the customer is looking for max power with his current motor setup. Sled puller from the south with an Industrial Injection built LB7 with dual 85% cp3's and a set of Exergy 185% injectors tha we installed. It showed up with a GTX4508R on it and the customer was not happy with the performance of it at all. Left the truck with me to see what I could get out of it for him with my recommended charger setup. Obviously as many of you know I use the batmo's almost exclusively becuase they have worked great for my customer's and I despite some of your opinions. Regardless I tried every turbo combination I felt would net the best power with his parts and my tuning. I tuned the GTX4508R and then proceeded to start swapping turbos around. When I found the exhaust side that matched this combo the best then we started swapping compressors around. I have attached the most relavent info to this thread about the cast 80mm vs Batmo80. I ran all the graphed runs with the same exhaust side combination(96mm turbine in a DP 1.10 T4 custom housing), my tuning, dyno load file, and etc. only difference was compressors. This is how I lead my customers to the best choices for their trucks and I feel 100% right in my decisions and so do my customers. 99% of my customers run Batmo's and they don't win by accident but apparently I am putting them at huge dissadvantage according to some people on the internet! We race in the real world not on paper so I'll stick with my "real world" results anyday of the week!
Bullseye does have a gas test stand and use it alot to get us where we are today. And as far as them blowing up left and right like some would like you to believe, I have spent close to $200k this year alone with them and can count on one hand the failures we have had so I am confused. If anyone was going to see a large amount of failure it is me! I am very happy with their products and am not changing what I'm doing becuase Borg posted a graph that says their's is better. I believe in results, nothing more and nothing less. You can continue your flaming, I have posted what I know to be fact and you can do with it what you want.$.02

What was the comp cover a/r used with each of the 80mm wheels?
 
Danville has always said that the wheels come on a little quicker and I can buy that by the surge line difference, but they definitely are giving up the very top end to do it.

Widening the map is having your cake and eating it too, takes a lot of engineering to pick up a few lbs/min either way. Makes you wonder where we'll be 20 years from now...

Please understand that my point is only to clarify the data, but the above statement regarding 'surge line difference' isn't 100% correct.

The surge line has little-to-nothing to do with 'getting into boost' quicker. The speed lines indicate pressure and flow for a given wheel speed. (for reference, note the speed line closest to 77krpm; both flow AND pressure are greater at a lower shaft speed with the O.E. wheel) The indication is that the O.E. wheel is making more pressure at lower shaft speeds which would have the effect of 'coming into boost' sooner. If the surge line is further to the left it means that you are flowing less air in that region, just as you would with either a smaller wheel, or one that simply flows less air overall.

I do agree that 'widening' the map is indeed the goal, but it should not be at the expense of flow and pressure vs. a given shaft speed. That's actually working backward, and, as you can see clearly in the map, it's also at the expense of wheel efficiency, which, honestly, is the most important factor for a proper match. Just because a wheel has a peak flow of XXlb/min, it's not really 'better' if efficiency is several points off at that flow rate, or if that peak flow requires more pressure (and heat) to be achieved. And, as you can see, efficiency is several points off, throughout nearly the entire map.

The real trick is to widen the map while still retaining the same, or greater efficiency, and also increasing total flow.

On the latter point, I also agree; I remember vividly when, 20 years ago, a wheel was considered 'excellent' if you could get mid-60% efficiency in the center of the map. Now we're flirting with 80+%, so, yes, it will be very exciting to see what the future holds.

One final point, but it's important enough to bear repeating; Borg Warner didn't just "post a graph", nor is this just a Photoshop exercise. The test process they use is 100% transparent and repeatable, in a lab environment, using the most sophisticated equipment available.

To assume that this data is skewed or otherwise manipulated would be unwise.
 
Wow is all I have to say to this thread! Apparently I missed a memo or something??? You all are in luck here as I just so happen to have spent the last 2 days straight on the dyno with a truck that the customer is looking for max power with his current motor setup. Sled puller from the south with an Industrial Injection built LB7 with dual 85% cp3's and a set of Exergy 185% injectors tha we installed. It showed up with a GTX4508R on it and the customer was not happy with the performance of it at all. Left the truck with me to see what I could get out of it for him with my recommended charger setup. Obviously as many of you know I use the batmo's almost exclusively becuase they have worked great for my customer's and I despite some of your opinions. Regardless I tried every turbo combination I felt would net the best power with his parts and my tuning. I tuned the GTX4508R and then proceeded to start swapping turbos around. When I found the exhaust side that matched this combo the best then we started swapping compressors around. I have attached the most relavent info to this thread about the cast 80mm vs Batmo80. I ran all the graphed runs with the same exhaust side combination(96mm turbine in a DP 1.10 T4 custom housing), my tuning, dyno load file, and etc. only difference was compressors. This is how I lead my customers to the best choices for their trucks and I feel 100% right in my decisions and so do my customers. 99% of my customers run Batmo's and they don't win by accident but apparently I am putting them at huge dissadvantage according to some people on the internet! We race in the real world not on paper so I'll stick with my "real world" results anyday of the week!
Bullseye does have a gas test stand and use it alot to get us where we are today. And as far as them blowing up left and right like some would like you to believe, I have spent close to $200k this year alone with them and can count on one hand the failures we have had so I am confused. If anyone was going to see a large amount of failure it is me! I am very happy with their products and am not changing what I'm doing becuase Borg posted a graph that says their's is better. I believe in results, nothing more and nothing less. You can continue your flaming, I have posted what I know to be fact and you can do with it what you want.$.02

Thanks for the input, Mark. Were race covers used on all the tests?
 
About time.
Kudos to BW for a) testing it and b) publishing it.
 
Exhaust housing on the GTX?

The GTX has a 1.15ar on it and all the 80mm borg-based was done with the BullseyePower Race cover untouched as it netted the most power. I had already done cover testing and tried the new bullseye race cover, the old race, a bmc cover and a borg race cover and also opened up the map on them to see if it would help and it didn't.

I also find it funny that the picture of the two chargers that where tested were both billet even though the map says cast vs. batmo??? Am I missing something here? Even better is the fact that in the May 2012 DSPORT import magazine on page42 there is a nice article entitled "All in the Family" BorgWarner S400SX3 Forged Milled Comp Wheels... It is about their new billet 80mm compressor wheel that is identical to the BullseyePower wheel that was release almost 2 yrs prior to this article. I think there maybe more to this story than meets the eye guys. I have yet to see this Borg offered billet wheel but the article is interesting to read none the less since we did the testing on them more than a year before.
 
Mark, I see that the cast wheel outdid the borg billet. Thoughts?
 
Pretty sure he knows that since he has 3 of them. I would have to say the GTX45 is the most impressive of the lot.
 
I also find it funny that the picture of the two chargers that where tested were both billet even though the map says cast vs. batmo??? Am I missing something here? Even better is the fact that in the May 2012 DSPORT import magazine on page42 there is a nice article entitled "All in the Family" BorgWarner S400SX3 Forged Milled Comp Wheels... It is about their new billet 80mm compressor wheel that is identical to the BullseyePower wheel that was release almost 2 yrs prior to this article. I think there maybe more to this story than meets the eye guys. I have yet to see this Borg offered billet wheel but the article is interesting to read none the less since we did the testing on them more than a year before.

Perhaps I can clarify this a bit:

The forum member who posted the map was mistaken in his description; this is not a 'Cast vs. Machined' wheel comparison.

The photo making the rounds shows the two exact units used in testing. The wheel part number noted on the map indicates that the O.E. wheel that was mapped was the FMW version.

The wheel shown is the production, 7/7-blade 82/110mm FMW wheel , which was released, pre-SEMA, 2011. So, yes, there are quite a few out there in the field.

I'm not certain how 'identical' that wheel is to any other manufacturer's wheel design, but it is the O.E., readily-available wheel that anyone can purchase as part of turbocharger 179180 or Super Core 179179. Both of these units also feature an all-new compressor cover design , also released last year, pre-SEMA, which features a revised compressor inlet treatment (the 'radiused inlet' insert) and a completely new recirculation groove design.

The map data indicates that each unit was tested with 'it's own' compressor cover design used. I can inquire as to whether any tests were performed with covers 'swapped' from unit to unit, but I don't know if that will be useful or not.

I don't think there is anything 'more to this story' than is clearly published, but I will agree that the post title is confusing.

This is really just very recent (10/01/12 is the test date), and solid engineering data, nothing more.
 
Perhaps I can clarify this a bit:

The forum member who posted the map was mistaken in his description; this is not a 'Cast vs. Machined' wheel comparison.

The photo making the rounds shows the two exact units used in testing. The wheel part number noted on the map indicates that the O.E. wheel that was mapped was the FMW version.

The wheel shown is the production, 7/7-blade 82/110mm FMW wheel , which was released, pre-SEMA, 2011. So, yes, there are quite a few out there in the field.

I'm not certain how 'identical' that wheel is to any other manufacturer's wheel design, but it is the O.E., readily-available wheel that anyone can purchase as part of turbocharger 179180 or Super Core 179179. Both of these units also feature an all-new compressor cover design , also released last year, pre-SEMA, which features a revised compressor inlet treatment (the 'radiused inlet' insert) and a completely new recirculation groove design.

The map data indicates that each unit was tested with 'it's own' compressor cover design used. I can inquire as to whether any tests were performed with covers 'swapped' from unit to unit, but I don't know if that will be useful or not.

I don't think there is anything 'more to this story' than is clearly published, but I will agree that the post title is confusing.

This is really just very recent (10/01/12 is the test date), and solid engineering data, nothing more.

So for clarification it an 82mm borg wheeled, compared to an 80mm batmo?
 
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