Bosch H Series Inline Pump Dynamic Timing

S

ShadowTrooper

Just a-creepin....
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
76
Picked this pump off ebay for just under $600 shipped. It's also known as the RP39.

Basically it's an inline 6 injection pump similar to a P7100 but it has an electronic governor. From what I've been able to tell, the electronic governor in this pump has a tone ring and RPM sensor, a fuel rack actuator solenoid, a fuel rack position sensor, and a second control rack for timing advance, also controlled by an actuator solenoid.

From what I've read, the actuators are PWM controlled, which means controlling it with a user programmable microcontroller such as Arduino or better yet a ChipKIT should be a piece of cake. I've already rigged up an Arduino Mega to control the oil flow actuator solenoid on a 6.0L VGT Turbo which is mounted on my 12V.

Im a tinkering kind of guy, I love exploring new possibilities. Things like this and p-pumped 7.3L Powerstrokes excite me. lol.

All this being said, here's some pictures:

ramypebe.jpg

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avaqu2yb.jpg

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ajabunu2.jpg


Here's a YouTube link showing a rebuild by a Bosch tech with a 8 cyl version H series.

Dieselmeken shows BOSCH H-serie complete overhaulin and testing Part 1 - YouTube

Here's some pics took when I got the pump:
2egy5asy.jpg

ratujase.jpg

sutareve.jpg

The above 2 pictures are the DV's in this pump. From what I've been able to discern theyre known as Constant Pressure valves... anybody know anything about how they would perform in our trucks?

Currently my truck is a '93 Chevy 3500 4x4 CCLB, but it's junk... I got it as a farm truck and decided one day to pull the tired 454 and drop in a 12V, and that's what got this whole thing started. Soon an Eaton Fuller 6 speed trans followed with all the medium duty bells and whistles (rated for 850 lb ft!) like larger clutch, double disc 14" clutch, etc. The Eaton has a 1 3/4" Input shaft, 6 total gears, 1st is a granny low, 6th is OD.

Mods include 4k GSK, BD AFC Spring kit, 7x.010 injectors built by Lee, plate gone, stock DV (on a 190hp industrial pump), 7.3L aluminum intercooler, and of course the stock '03 model 6.0L PSD turbo. For those of you not familiar with 6.0L turbos, this is the one with the ten blade turbine (the infamous jet whistle). It also has a semi-clockable compressor housing, making mounting this behemoth on my 12V-in-a-Chevy possible.

The goal of the experiment is to basically have vp-44 style throttle response with p-pump fuel rates and durability. Additionally, I'd like to see good power (4-500hp) from 1500-3000 RPM and maybe higher, with relatively low boost but higher flowing numbers.

Future mods (over the next several months) include:
A new truck! Of the same era. Hoping to pick up a good clean roller for cheap.
P&P head, debating on whether or not to mill the plenum off or not for intake port profiling.
Air to water intercooler. Primarily for the space benefits. I will probably mount 2 small radiators for intercooling in the grille in front of the AC condenser. Right now with a custom radiator the 7.3L intercooler and stock chevy ac condenser it's way too jam packed to have everything hold up in the long term. ask me how I know.
Twin turbo. Haven't decided on a primary just yet but I want to maintain the 6.0L turbo as the secondary. with VGT and a 58mm compressor it should spool real quick. even with VGT though it's probably gonna need an external gate.
Cam of some sort. Our shop trusts Hamilton Cams so that's what I'm gonna go with.
7x.011 injectors. Probably gonna go with Lee on these just like last time, I had no complaints with his 7x.010's.
Performance exhaust manifold of some sort. Haven't decided which yet. Everything will be wrapped or blanketed at the very least to keep underhood temps down.


I took a look at a calibration file for a LLY Duramax in EFILive to get an idea of the methods it uses to control timing and fueling rates. It looks like it's gonna be a bit of work to program the ChipKIT to do the same thing but it's definitely possible.

I work in a professional diesel shop just for ford/dodge/chev and they're all asking me why do this instead of a cr. One answer is uniqueness. I guarantee you will have a hard time finding another mid 90's Chevrolet with a 12 valve with this pump, twin turbo with vgt secondary, and a six speed Eaton.
Another answer is experimentation.. I love to tinker.
Last but not least even with cost of pump and electronics it will still cost waaaaay less than obtaining a common rail engine and the parts to make as much power as this setup will be capable of.

Thoughts/impressions?
 
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I have nothing to add, but this sounds really cool. Good luck on getting it working well. Variable timing would be nice to have.
 
I feel like running this truck at 500 horse isn't maximizing the advantage of the variable timing. There are plenty of ~500 hp ppumped trucks that are plenty streetable. Now don't get me wrong it'd be awesome to have the reliability of the ppump AND have variable timing! But if you had this running at say around 900-950 you would be one of the few people running a truely streetable p-pump based truck. Either way awesome idea and I would drive the piss out of it no matter the horse power. Subbed to this.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2
 
"a second control rack for timing advance"

not sure how it is controlling timing, unless there is a special plunger in the pump. there needs to be a disconnect between the drive of the pump, and the cam itself. So there must be some sort of control over the rack, and I see that as eventually compromising performance

essentially how much timing are we talking?
 
This looks pretty awesome. I wouldnt mind doing a project like this with a bit of programming to control a variable timing ppump!
 
ahale2772 said:
"a second control rack for timing advance"

not sure how it is controlling timing, unless there is a special plunger in the pump. there needs to be a disconnect between the drive of the pump, and the cam itself. So there must be some sort of control over the rack, and I see that as eventually compromising performance

essentially how much timing are we talking?
Click to expand...

Take a look at the video in the OP. It does use different plungers and barrels. The helix port cut is actually a ways down the plunger instead of on the top like the P-pump. There's a sleeve that sits around the plunger that moves up and down that controls when the spill port is cut off (start of injection, thus timing).
 
Bigphil54 said:
I feel like running this truck at 500 horse isn't maximizing the advantage of the variable timing. There are plenty of ~500 hp ppumped trucks that are plenty streetable. Now don't get me wrong it'd be awesome to have the reliability of the ppump AND have variable timing! But if you had this running at say around 900-950 you would be one of the few people running a truely streetable p-pump based truck. Either way awesome idea and I would drive the piss out of it no matter the horse power. Subbed to this.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

I figured somebody would say something along these lines. I'll probably start at 4-500 and see where we go from there. I could definitely see someone with an auto with 500 streetable horse... but in my experience it's a bit trickier on a standard. Every 24V with a standard that has come into our shop has hands-down trumped even some of the decent 12V's I've seen with a standard.
 
ahale2772 said:
"a second control rack for timing advance"

......

essentially how much timing are we talking?
Click to expand...

Sorry, didn't see this second part.

As far as range of timing advance, all I can do is speculate on that one. If you look at the video he actuates the control sleeve a few times. It looks to me at least 1/4". If we can assume this is usable, we're talking about ~6.35mm, and if we use the rule of thumb that every .1mm is .5* of timing, that's a range of about 32*. So quite a bit to play with.
 
ShadowTrooper said:
Sorry, didn't see this second part.

As far as range of timing advance, all I can do is speculate on that one. If you look at the video he actuates the control sleeve a few times. It looks to me at least 1/4". If we can assume this is usable, we're talking about ~6.35mm, and if we use the rule of thumb that every .1mm is .5* of timing, that's a range of about 32*. So quite a bit to play with.
Click to expand...

very cool... I never got a chance to look at the video.

always wondered why a plunger with the opposite of a 215 style notch couldn't be used, would not be a ton of timing but even 10 deg would be nice.

I have an injection pump gear off of a unimog at the shop that I have been meaning to post up, it has a mechanical advance in it that is super simple, easily replicated but IDK how to account for the difference in drive from say a stock 160 pump to a 13mm pump with a quick rate cam... I'm sure a big pump takes a ton more to turn and would affect how it works.
 
One more thing I forgot to mention:
There are a few physical differences between this pump and a p-pump as far as mounting is concerned. This pump is a wee bit taller, so there will be a small amount of injector line modification needed to make this work.
The bolt pattern is also different. the top two line up to a Cummins timing case, the bottom two are angled slightly downward. This is not a big deal, as I can have the inside of the case tig welded to fill in the gaps between the stock thread holes, then drill and tap the welded area in the vicinity of the lower holes.
The cam that came in this pump has a bigger diameter taper than a p pump. I don't have the actual measurements in front of me right now but a stock p pump gear has no chance of fitting.
The seal flange that portrudes out of the pump and sits in the timing case (has the large o-ring on it) is also .25" bigger in diameter.

To solve the latter two issues I could
machine out the hole in the gear housing to accomodate the larger seal flange, and I could also have a p pump gear machined out to accomodate the larger taper. However I think a less risk solution would be to swap the cam out with a 903 cam from a 180/215 p pump if the measurements bearing wise are all the same. Judging from the video it looks like the back end of the cam that sits in the governor is or is close to the same size as the end of the cam in a p pump. If this could be done I could use stock parts outside of the pump and it would eliminate any possibility of a firing order mismatch.
 
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ahale2772 said:
very cool... I never got a chance to look at the video.

always wondered why a plunger with the opposite of a 215 style notch couldn't be used, would not be a ton of timing but even 10 deg would be nice.

I have an injection pump gear off of a unimog at the shop that I have been meaning to post up, it has a mechanical advance in it that is super simple, easily replicated but IDK how to account for the difference in drive from say a stock 160 pump to a 13mm pump with a quick rate cam... I'm sure a big pump takes a ton more to turn and would affect how it works.
Click to expand...

There is definitely a durability factor. Alot of people have suggested to me in my quest for dynamic timing on a p pump a way to dynamically rotate the camshaft ahead of the gear somehow for a diming advance using flyweights etc, which might work fine for a stock pump but from what I've been told a turned up p pump can draw as much as 25+hp to turn it which would significantly affect such an apparatus' lifespan and/or operation.
 
ShadowTrooper said:
One more thing I forgot to mention:
There are a few physical differences between this pump and a p-pump as far as mounting is concerned. This pump is a wee bit taller, so there will be a small amount of injector line modification needed to make this work.
The bolt pattern is also different. the top two line up to a Cummins timing case, the bottom two are angled slightly downward. This is not a big deal, as I can have the inside of the case tig welded to fill in the gaps between the stock thread holes, then drill and tap the welded area in the vicinity of the lower holes.
The cam that came in this pump has a bigger diameter taper than a p pump. I don't have the actual measurements in front of me right now but a stock p pump gear has no chance of fitting.
The seal flange that portrudes out of the pump and sits in the timing case (has the large o-ring on it) is also .25" bigger in diameter.

To solve the latter two issues I could
machine out the hole in the gear housing to accomodate the larger seal flange, and I could also have a p pump gear machined out to accomodate the larger taper. However I think a less risk solution would be to swap the cam out with a 903 cam from a 180/215 p pump if the measurements bearing wise are all the same. Judging from the video it looks like the back end of the cam that sits in the governor is or is close to the same size as the end of the cam in a p pump. If this could be done I could use stock parts outside of the pump and it would eliminate any possibility of a firing order mismatch.
Click to expand...

Might look at getting the gear bored out instead of swapping cams. Jesse makes new hubs for adjustable pump gears. While the adjustability wouldn't be the main benefit, having a hub made to the proper size instead of a cam swap would simplify the install.
 
Tate said:
Might look at getting the gear bored out instead of swapping cams. Jesse makes new hubs for adjustable pump gears. While the adjustability wouldn't be the main benefit, having a hub made to the proper size instead of a cam swap would simplify the install.
Click to expand...

We'll have to see.. I can't use a p-pump seal flange with this cam as well because that flange will not physically fit diameter wise around this cam. So remember that if I keep this cam (still have to verify the firing order is correct as well) I'd have to machine the gear case AND get the gear done.

We have a pump shop that our diesel shop uses at cost so I may or may not change the cam myself (we have avenues with which to get ahold of cams w/o buying new ones) and just have them bench it or have them do the whole swap.

Time for my labor isn't really a big deal, I hillbillied this chevy swap from the beginning when I didn't really know what I was doing and now 30k miles later I'm paying for it with stuff breaking every 2 weeks. I'm not really interested in repeating this so I'll take as much time as is needed. So it all really boils down to dollars and cents. lol

On a side note: I made some progress with the program tonight. It looks like most of the length of the original VGT program I have will just be copied and pasted into the new one with some minor modifications and minor addons like Limp mode capabilities (egt too high, ect too high, eot too high, I'm going to install sensors at the top of the head and at the water inlet that will detect the presence of water and if they say no water... guess what, limp mode). If I decide to go high HP with this I don't wanna blow a HG from running out of water or running too hot. I'm also going to incorporate Exhaust brake capabilities with the VGT and DFCO (Deceleration Fuel Cutoff). So minor subroutines will need to be added to the code but it should not be quite as difficult as I originally anticipated.
 
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I have similar pumps except mine are 13mm's and have elec governors only, no timing control. Get it running well then swap out those constant flow valves when you want big fuel. ;)
 
LReiff said:
Zexel MD-TICS pumps are very similar. One thing you'll need to do if you wish to use the H-pump in an automotive application is to swap the current gov assembly out for the auto style gov used on the P7100.

The Zexel pump I had apart wouldn't sustain near the power a P7100 will, cam stroke was short and it only had 11mm b&p's.

Zexel Injection Pumps - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together

Bomaba%20Zexel%20md_tics.gif
Click to expand...
Why do you say i would need to change governors? for one i can control the rack electronically, its not a big deal, and two how do you propose i control the timing rack with a mechanical governor? Bosch lists h pumps as only available with an electronic governor.
 
LReiff said:
Zexel MD-TICS pumps are very similar. One thing you'll need to do if you wish to use the H-pump in an automotive application is to swap the current gov assembly out for the auto style gov used on the P7100.

The Zexel pump I had apart wouldn't sustain near the power a P7100 will, cam stroke was short and it only had 11mm b&p's.

Zexel Injection Pumps - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together

Bomaba%20Zexel%20md_tics.gif
Click to expand...

Why would he need to swap out the electronic gov if he is doing PLC's for it? Would a gov assembly off a P-pump even be able to control both racks?
 
The gov does not control the timing rack. It only controls the fuel rack. Put an automotive gov on it and you're one step closer to simplicity. The actuator on the side of the H-pump is what controls timing. The timing rack pivots to move the barrels up and down on the plunger to change fill port location in relation to the plunger helix. To contol timing precisely you will need an ecu that takes crank and cam rpm and boost into calculation for timing.
 
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