Dirty Common Rail Injectors

[BrianAtSmarty]

Dirty Common Rail Injectors.

There are many Cummins guys now days who have a concern about the particulates emitting out of the tailpipes of their Mighty Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesels. With all the scrutiny we all are under and emissions testing common throughout the USA.

This is just a little discussion about common rail injectors and the myth that ALL larger aftermarket injectors are Dirty. While there are some CR injectors out there that ARE filthy dirty, not all fall into that category. Done correctly, a larger than stock injector can offer much better flow efficiently AND remain clean.

On the real serious higher output injectors, one needs tuning and one needs to do it properly.

Enjoy this correspondence borrowed from a forum post.

Exergy gives, IIRC, something like 30 days to return your cores before then
charge you for them. So 100% overs from Exergy are still cheaper than BBi's.
I was also talking to Gordon and he was telling me Les was tuning a guy with
stage 3's and compound garrett's and they are very dirty. Said he had to do
a lot to get them to run half way clean. I'll stick with Exergy. Have yet to
hear/see any bad things about their injectors.

Dirty? We've yet to see ANY injector that flows close to what BBi's do,
that burn nearly as clean. Stage 3's are capable of up to 1200 rwhp. Tuning required ? Yes sir! We're getting reports back from several tuners that are decreasing duration back, to levels they've never experienced before. Dirty ? I think not. We refer to that as flow. Smooth, linear, consistent, PRECISE flow. One recent example. We have a customer that was planning to achieve 1200 rwhp. 3's can achieve that at the upper end, while 4's can produce that while loafing. Said customer teetered on the decision of which product to choose. Ultimately deciding to go with the 4's. Thinking he'd pull back duration with the larger injectors, as opposed to cranking it up with the "smaller" injectors. (3's are not small) He was previously running a US injector companies "300 hp" units. With his 300's, he was running approx. 2800 jus of duration in the upper end. With the BBi Stg. 4's he ended up backing that duration off to 1700jus. Before backing down he had an additional 10 psi of boost. Backing down duration to 1700jus brought boost back down 10 psi & the change gave him a MUCH cleaner running truck. With his old 300’s he dynoed at 1040 rwhp uncorrected. 1015 corrected. He's yet to get back on the dyno, but is convinced he has a substantial power improvement.

So to sum up, the same tuning netted him the 10 additional pounds of boost. He kept pulling back duration until he achieved the same peak boost. Which was the 2800 value back to 1700 which netted him the same overall boost. But it's now cleaner & meaner

On the big ones good tuning is needed.

Another example. Take a look at these emissions testing sheets on a 2012 with stage BBi Stage 1.5s. Lets let these sheets do the talking. This shows what a well engineered injector is capable of as far as emissions particulates go. http://smartyresource.com/images/2012%20Emissions%20Test.pdf This truck is set up a bit simpler. Smarty JR on level 1 and all defaults. STG 2 compressor upgrade on the charger also.

This example should show that those wanting the best quality Injector for an efficient increase of power can have the power and run clean too.

 

[CHEMMINS]

Now how much more flow rate does the stage 4's have vs the competitors 300hp units?

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

How do they compare? Based on experience, not analysis, they don't.

This particular outfit doesn't offer flow rate values with their products, only hp ratings.

BBi has not tested these take out units


Here is some info on the BBi 4's.

Nozzle flow rate of 144l/h/100bar --> 140% increase compared to stock

Injector output with changed setup --> 163% increase compared to stock (full load injection 1600bar/1700µs).

 

[Lightman46]

How did they get a 5.9 cummins in a 2012 3500 dodge?

Dirty Common Rail Injectors.

Enjoy this correspondence borrowed from a forum post.





On the big ones good tuning is needed.

Another example. Take a look at these emissions testing sheets on a 2012 with stage BBi Stage 1.5s. Lets let these sheets do the talking. This shows what a well engineered injector is capable of as far as emissions particulates go. http://smartyresource.com/images/2012%20Emissions%20Test.pdf This truck is set up a bit simpler. Smarty JR on level 1 and all defaults. STG 2 compressor upgrade on the charger also.

This example should show that those wanting the best quality Injector for an efficient increase of power can have the power and run clean too.

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

Gotcha! Typo at emissions test facility. Thank you!

http://smartyresource.com/images/2012%20Emissions%20Test.pdf

 

[STROKETHISF350]

Ill take exergy over ANY injecector hands down no questions asked Idc how great bbi is suppose to be.

 

[Purn1973]

X2 on the Exergy's. I'm running 100% over Exergy's with dual cp3's and a single 64, very little if any smoke at WOT. Truck runs smooth and very clean with the help of EFI Live, hand calculated best of 20.3mpg as well.

 

[estrada5.9]

Brian could you explain in simple terms what BBI does internally that other companies may or may not do? Seems like its some of the internal work that is done to BBI injectors that sets them apart from some other companies injectors.

Thanks.

 

[TxDiesel007]

Brian could you explain in simple terms what BBI does internally that other companies may or may not do? Seems like its some of the internal work that is done to BBI injectors that sets them apart from some other companies injectors.

Thanks.

this please...

thanks

 

[CBlack]

Brian could you explain in simple terms what BBI does internally that other companies may or may not do? Seems like its some of the internal work that is done to BBI injectors that sets them apart from some other companies injectors.

Thanks.

this please...

thanks

It's something that BBi won't divulge. I've heard that the owner used to work for Bosch as well.

 

[CHEMMINS]

I haven't seen anything yet where bbi and a competitor's injectors have done a back to back comparison with new out of the box injectors of equal flow.

We always hear the new injectors work better than the old ones. Well maybe because they are supposed to be an upgrade, so therefore of course they will be better.

BBI doesn't have to divulge their secrets....they just need to go buy brand new competitors units (aka - wickeds, exergy, II) and put them into an independent test which isn't conducted by them, but a 3rd party with no horse in the game. If they are still making more power and running cleaner....then I will buy them.

 

[joelc79]

Well i think most companies compare their tuned full body injectors to a set of competitors nozzles punched out on some 100k mile injector bodies...not really a true comparison. I guarantee some BBI nozzles on a stock body is smokey too, thats probably why they wont sell just the nozzles i bet.

I have new F1's on the way, they have my best interest in their new full injectors. That hasn't always been the case but they have stood behind their product even after a few years.

 

[STROKETHISF350]

I hear the crickets chirping, I think we made Brian speechless or something. I think it's funny how this new injector company comes out and the guys at smarty think there so much better than company's that have been around ie exergy. Idc what is said or who thinks what's better, exergy has proven their product time and time again and I'd choose them over anything else.

 

[joelc79]

I hear the crickets chirping, I think we made Brian speechless or something. I think it's funny how this new injector company comes out and the guys at smarty think there so much better than company's that have been around ie exergy. Idc what is said or who thinks what's better, exergy has proven their product time and time again and I'd choose them over anything else.

I agree.
An injector has to be tuned to the nozzle as well as the other 5 or 7 injectors to be clean and efficient. They are taking that common sense and trying to sell it.

 

[Woosley]

Trying to sell it? Trying to jam it down everybodies throat is a better observation. The sales pitch that keeps being presented is like a infomercial, with the unrealistic comparisons.

 

[Hammer]

Dirty? We've yet to see ANY injector that flows close to what BBi's do,
that burn nearly as clean. Stage 3's are capable of up to 1200 rwhp. Tuning required ? Yes sir! We're getting reports back from several tuners that are decreasing duration back, to levels they've never experienced before. Dirty ? I think not. We refer to that as flow. Smooth, linear, consistent, PRECISE flow. One recent example. We have a customer that was planning to achieve 1200 rwhp. 3's can achieve that at the upper end, while 4's can produce that while loafing. Said customer teetered on the decision of which product to choose. Ultimately deciding to go with the 4's. Thinking he'd pull back duration with the larger injectors, as opposed to cranking it up with the "smaller" injectors. (3's are not small) He was previously running a US injector companies "300 hp" units. With his 300's, he was running approx. 2800 jus of duration in the upper end. With the BBi Stg. 4's he ended up backing that duration off to 1700jus. Before backing down he had an additional 10 psi of boost. Backing down duration to 1700jus brought boost back down 10 psi & the change gave him a MUCH cleaner running truck. With his old 300’s he dynoed at 1040 rwhp uncorrected. 1015 corrected. He's yet to get back on the dyno, but is convinced he has a substantial power improvement.

You know I read all the hype surrounding these injectors and have yet to see any substantial proof on a already established high HP CR that they are worth what BBI claims they are.

So here Ya Go Brian.....
My truck is a PROVEN 1000HP ride that is driven to shows all over the East Coast.AS a matter of fact we have the biggest Dyno show on the East Coast coming up and its a show Our club puts on,called "Fall Brawl".So here is a simple offer,Send me a set of the Stage 3's that you claim are good for 1200RWHP and we will swap them into my truck for the show.If they make a substantial power gain,I will buy them and leave them in the truck.If they do not make a substantial gain in power,like your claiming,I will box them up and send them back on my dime.

I personally do not believe the hype that is being stated about power gains with the BBI over any other builders.Good,bad or indifferent I will post my findings here.We have a proven jet and a proven truck and I am willing to have a go at this.I have been on the fence thinking about these for a while and the hype scares me as I have seen it before in this industry.So you can make a believer out of both me and the masses here all you need to do step to the plate.........Andy

 

[homewrecker]

Trying to sell it? Trying to jam it down everybodies throat is a better observation. The sales pitch that keeps being presented is like a infomercial, with the unrealistic comparisons.

:thumbup: Everything thing about these injectors sounds fishy to me. Exergy is also a few ex Bosch engineers.. You dont see them on here tooting their on horn. As a matter of fact, their product is in many of the top pulling and drag trucks in diesel motorsports. Until BBI can say that, I don't care what Brian or anyone else has to say about them.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Bustedknuckles]

You know I read all the hype surrounding these injectors and have yet to see any substantial proof on a already established high HP CR that they are worth what BBI claims they are.

So here Ya Go Brian.....
My truck is a PROVEN 1000HP ride that is driven to shows all over the East Coast.AS a matter of fact we have the biggest Dyno show on the East Coast coming up and its a show Our club puts on,called "Fall Brawl".So here is a simple offer,Send me a set of the Stage 3's that you claim are good for 1200RWHP and we will swap them into my truck for the show.If they make a substantial power gain,I will buy them and leave them in the truck.If they do not make a substantial gain in power,like your claiming,I will box them up and send them back on my dime.

I personally do not believe the hype that is being stated about power gains with the BBI over any other builders.Good,bad or indifferent I will post my findings here.We have a proven jet and a proven truck and I am willing to have a go at this.I have been on the fence thinking about these for a while and the hype scares me as I have seen it before in this industry.So you can make a believer out of both me and the masses here all you need to do step to the plate.........Andy

I like the sound of this! Andy and his truck dominate quite a few of the east coast dyno events, If you want to put your money where your mouth is send him a set!!

 

[okie18]

So, is this gonna be the new "cam/trans wars"? *bdh*

 

[Big Swole]

I believe because I had a set... Saw the test info and was told about a few things.

Not saying Exergy doesn't have great stuff too, I know they do.
I know F1 has some good stuff too. I used them also. But I had an issue that BBI fixed and they were the best they'd ever been at that point.

I think Brian and the folks from this company are just doing what any company would do to get their name out there and create business... It's a shame to see the hostility even without people trying them... I've not heard anyone having an issue with BBI's yet.. Usually hostility comes after people have issues..

Oh well..