For anyone stalling on a new turbo for their 6.0 diesel, don't

wow this is a useful thread...... :clap:

especially this post...:bang
Trusted said:
Just an fyi, I would be very supprised if your VGT will out perform the new turbos we have. They are due to hit in a couple months with a pre-sale coming next month
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Well, both of you are right.

We are casting a new turbine housing, which is part of our kits.

Over the past two years we have been doing a lot of research and development on the 6.0’s. Our upcoming turbo kits (featuring the new turbine housing) will be one of many releases this year.

There are really 4 key aspects to a turbo which affect its performance. The compressor side affects the airflow. The size of the compressor cover and the compressor wheel (size, trim, weight, etc) both play a key roll. We have three different compressor covers available in the S300 class and a host of different compressor wheels to fit the power and performance levels our customers want and need.

On the exhaust side, you have the same basic things. The turbine wheel (size, trim, weight, etc) and turbine housing affect the exhaust side. One thing to keep in mind, is that exhaust side of things, is what gives the overall turbo its characteristics. If you have a turbine housing too big, the charger won’t spool down low and the truck will have no power down low. If the housing is too small, the chargers is almost too responsive and puts tremendous loads on the bearings and it will fail rather quickly (unfortunately, we lost quite a few doing this). The turbine wheels, also, play a roll in how quickly or slowly the charger lights. Their primary function is handling the exhaust flow though. We will be releasing three A/R’s this year. In addition to the three different turbine housings, we have a number of turbine wheels to choose from in the S300 frame size.

From what we have researched and tested, we have not had any issues with surge, egt’s have been extremely manageable (usually quite a bit lower at low to medium throttle), back pressure is substantially lower than the VGT’s we have tested and when properly configured, we have not had an issue with towing. (I say properly because if someone says they want performance and we build X charger for performance (say a 66) and then try to tow 15k with it, it won’t do it because the charger wasn’t designed for 15k.)

When a customer decides to purchase a turbo, they are almost strictly relying on the knowledge of the person/company they are buying a charger from. That trust is why we have invested heavily in this new turbine housing. We know, what is currently out there, whether VGT or Non-VGT, there are issues. The non-vgt’s don’t spool quite as well down low as we need them to or they need “special tuning” that only one or two people know.

The biggest issues with the VGT’s are back pressures, surge, sticking vanes and reliability. I would assume that the new Garrett upgrade has fixed the reliability. But I’m willing to put money (and have) that millimeter to millimeter, our non-vgt’s will outperform 90 +% of the time.

I’m sorry for the delay in responding to this thread. We have been quite busy getting ready for this housing and finishing some of our compound kits.
 
Extended Power said:
They have changed the whole damn turbine housing to make it work the BEST with the 6.0L....having the additional benefit of it being a direct bolt in was just another good selling point if you ask me.
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We will elaborate on this in a couple weeks.
 
Zedd said:
The only reason the stock VNT sucks is because of the airplane wings garrett used as "vanes". A proper VNT with inconel vanes will obliterate any similarly sized wastegated turbo in spool up speed. Thats why the 6.4L spools up so much faster than the 6.0L.

On my own MB, my VNT will produce 18psi at 2000rpm when the stock turbo is only starting to wake up with 2psi.
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Yes and no. 6.4's high pressure charger is very small, so it spools faster. VVT, VNT, VGT etc, assists in the spool up that is for sure. Being computer controlled, they are what would seem to be the best of both worlds. The issue is that most are put into use for emissions. So, they have high back pressure throughout the rpm range to EGR.

If we take a fixed geometry turbo and allow it to have high back pressure throughout the rpm range, we would end up with a 62 that has 20+ psi of boost at 2,000 rpms such as some of our prototypes (with stock injectors). If designing the turbo for efficiency throughout the rpm range, then we would use a larger housing that spools slightly slower. It is all in what you are looking for.

For the record, the 62 had some bearing issues due to thrust load put onto it.
 
Extended Power said:
You honestly think that it took almost two years for them to come up with a turbine housing that just "allows you to bolt it on without all the adaptors that are normally required?"

They have changed the whole damn turbine housing to make it work the BEST with the 6.0L....having the additional benefit of it being a direct bolt in was just another good selling point if you ask me.
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Why do you think it took two years?
 
Trusted said:
Well, both of you are right.

We are casting a new turbine housing, which is part of our kits.

Over the past two years we have been doing a lot of research and development on the 6.0’s. Our upcoming turbo kits (featuring the new turbine housing) will be one of many releases this year.

There are really 4 key aspects to a turbo which affect its performance. The compressor side affects the airflow. The size of the compressor cover and the compressor wheel (size, trim, weight, etc) both play a key roll. We have three different compressor covers available in the S300 class and a host of different compressor wheels to fit the power and performance levels our customers want and need.

On the exhaust side, you have the same basic things. The turbine wheel (size, trim, weight, etc) and turbine housing affect the exhaust side. One thing to keep in mind, is that exhaust side of things, is what gives the overall turbo its characteristics. If you have a turbine housing too big, the charger won’t spool down low and the truck will have no power down low. If the housing is too small, the chargers is almost too responsive and puts tremendous loads on the bearings and it will fail rather quickly (unfortunately, we lost quite a few doing this). The turbine wheels, also, play a roll in how quickly or slowly the charger lights. Their primary function is handling the exhaust flow though. We will be releasing three A/R’s this year. In addition to the three different turbine housings, we have a number of turbine wheels to choose from in the S300 frame size.

From what we have researched and tested, we have not had any issues with surge, egt’s have been extremely manageable (usually quite a bit lower at low to medium throttle), back pressure is substantially lower than the VGT’s we have tested and when properly configured, we have not had an issue with towing. (I say properly because if someone says they want performance and we build X charger for performance (say a 66) and then try to tow 15k with it, it won’t do it because the charger wasn’t designed for 15k.)

When a customer decides to purchase a turbo, they are almost strictly relying on the knowledge of the person/company they are buying a charger from. That trust is why we have invested heavily in this new turbine housing. We know, what is currently out there, whether VGT or Non-VGT, there are issues. The non-vgt’s don’t spool quite as well down low as we need them to or they need “special tuning” that only one or two people know.

The biggest issues with the VGT’s are back pressures, surge, sticking vanes and reliability. I would assume that the new Garrett upgrade has fixed the reliability. But I’m willing to put money (and have) that millimeter to millimeter, our non-vgt’s will outperform 90 +% of the time.

I’m sorry for the delay in responding to this thread. We have been quite busy getting ready for this housing and finishing some of our compound kits.
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Still comparing the orginal post about a VGT turbo to a non-VGT setup. Apples to oranges...
 
HeavyAssault said:
Still comparing the orginal post about a VGT turbo to a non-VGT setup. Apples to oranges...
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I just got mine from brown's diesel. Prices are due to go due as they extremely underpriced these guys. I will have everything installed and running/towing wednesday probably and will answer as many pms and calls as possible. The salespeople relized they priced the turbo's WAY too low, no core charge, all brand new internals, 64mm inducer, will handle 175 HP over a stock turbo with the same or better spoolup, probably better milage from lower drive pressure. Buy it now and wait til mine is installed. If you don't like it, send it back. Where else are you gonna get a brand new vgt turbo equivalent to elite's-ss's (not knocking them by any means), no core and for under $1,700? I paid well under but it may have been a buddy deal. Check it out, prices go up next month. it sounded perfect for my application. N ow I'm just hoping to be able to afford a set of 155's from trusted peeformance while I am at it...


Maybe I’m missing something.

The original post is talking about a new charger with no core charge, 64mm inducer that can handle 175hp over stock. (It isn’t a fair comparison to mention ours that can do the same?)

Then he talks about spool up, mpg and drive pressure. (Again, so am I.)

Says buy now because it is a low price and it is going up. (I’m mentioning out pre-sale because of the same thing)

Would you rather me discuss the problems with a 64mm VGT and nock what they have coming out?

Not trying to be an A$$ but what am I missing? How is that apples to oranges? Are we the apples because we have a ton invested in this and it should be superior or are we oranges because we are a non-vgt?
 
HeavyAssault said:
Why do you think it took two years?
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Ivan has been a customer of ours for awhile now and has tested some of the experimental units. He knows a great deal about what we have coming out. Most of the additional features, and will be getting a production unit shortly.
 
Trusted said:
I just got mine from brown's diesel. Prices are due to go due as they extremely underpriced these guys. I will have everything installed and running/towing wednesday probably and will answer as many pms and calls as possible. The salespeople relized they priced the turbo's WAY too low, no core charge, all brand new internals, 64mm inducer, will handle 175 HP over a stock turbo with the same or better spoolup, probably better milage from lower drive pressure. Buy it now and wait til mine is installed. If you don't like it, send it back. Where else are you gonna get a brand new vgt turbo equivalent to elite's-ss's (not knocking them by any means), no core and for under $1,700? I paid well under but it may have been a buddy deal. Check it out, prices go up next month. it sounded perfect for my application. N ow I'm just hoping to be able to afford a set of 155's from trusted peeformance while I am at it...


Maybe I’m missing something.

The original post is talking about a new charger with no core charge, 64mm inducer that can handle 175hp over stock. (It isn’t a fair comparison to mention ours that can do the same?)

Then he talks about spool up, mpg and drive pressure. (Again, so am I.)

Says buy now because it is a low price and it is going up. (I’m mentioning out pre-sale because of the same thing)

Would you rather me discuss the problems with a 64mm VGT and nock what they have coming out?

Not trying to be an A$$ but what am I missing? How is that apples to oranges? Are we the apples because we have a ton invested in this and it should be superior or are we oranges because we are a non-vgt?
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Well played sir...
 
We are all still on the same playing field trusted...I understand, you needed a badass turbo to compare yours to so I went ahead and bought it to give ya heads up performance. Nothing wrong with that. I would have like to seen your specs before buying the garret but then you may have not had the competition. I wish the best to you. I took the edge out and am waiting for tuning from innovative and it still runs great, I can't wait. It's good competition. Your injectors would still be the top of my list when I go that route. Us little guy hang together. By (us) my folks started an aerospace and defense machine shops almost 30 years ago. I have been involved eversince. Almost went under a coulpe times. Even this past economy almost took us out and we employ 60, and are feature suppliers for moog, lockheed, ratheon, out parrts are in all 5 big missile programs. I know what it takes and where you are coming from. I hope the best to you trusted. And eventhough I'm mainly a cummins guy, you got my support....
 
Not to discount what you have there MMA, but there isn't anything new about the turbo you have. I think there are now at least 10 vendors that have come to market at one point or another with that turbo. I have one from Spartan Diesel. Turbo did fine, probably would have been better with a small set of sticks, but it surged while towing or hills.

BTW, love the Olde English's you have there.
 
Why can I buy a $600 charger off e-bay and throw it on my buddies d-max and have it do everything he wants, tow an make good power. Then go out and win truck pulls on the weekend or run a high 11 in the quarter mile.

So the 6.0's spooling problems all come back to poor turbo designs?
 
Zedd said:
The only reason the stock VNT sucks is because of the airplane wings garrett used as "vanes". A proper VNT with inconel vanes will obliterate any similarly sized wastegated turbo in spool up speed. Thats why the 6.4L spools up so much faster than the 6.0L.

On my own MB, my VNT will produce 18psi at 2000rpm when the stock turbo is only starting to wake up with 2psi.
Click to expand...


My non VGT compound truck produces it's regulated boost of 60 to 70psi at 1500rpm.

And at 3600rpm it's still running 1:1 boost/drive and holding 600hp.



There's your quick-spool non-vgt answer...
 
lubeowner said:
Why can I buy a $600 charger off e-bay and throw it on my buddies d-max and have it do everything he wants, tow an make good power. Then go out and win truck pulls on the weekend or run a high 11 in the quarter mile.

So the 6.0's spooling problems all come back to poor turbo designs?
Click to expand...

The 6.0’s power issue isn’t simply a spool up problem. It is a sum of parts. That leads into a hole different topic and thread.

The turbine housing we have designed works with what little is there in order to produce the needed air flow down low. Notice that nowhere in here, have we claimed to have high horsepower anything like that. Our new housings will help with low end power, lower egt’s at low to medium rpm, lower back pressure, etc.
 
I think I will stick with the trusted turbo's. Given the fact that they have been testing the crap out of them, the quality of the parts that I have seen from them, and the fact that they did a VERY nice job plumbing the twins on the Ranger. Also given that they are a site sponsor here, I would rather give them the business if it were apples to apples then elsewhere that doesn't. IMHO, you take care of those that take care of you, especially when they do a quality job.
 
Dalpilot said:
I think I will stick with the trusted turbo's. Given the fact that they have been testing the crap out of them, the quality of the parts that I have seen from them, and the fact that they did a VERY nice job plumbing the twins on the Ranger. Also given that they are a site sponsor here, I would rather give them the business if it were apples to apples then elsewhere that doesn't. IMHO, you take care of those that take care of you, especially when they do a quality job.
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You running fixed geometry chargers on the ranger?
 
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