Intake Manifold Design

[Hamilton Cams]

It was not meant to be condescending to anybody unless you throw poo or threaten people on the forums with lawsuits.

 

[crackerman]

It was not meant to be condescending to anybody unless you throw poo or threaten people on the forums with lawsuits.

this is off subject.
Will you be at Ennis in 2 weeks? if so, I will carry a few extra beers for you.
IF we can find you before you pack up and head out.

 

[TheBigNasty]

The condescending attitude begins.:badidea:

If you ever met Zach in person, you'd be hard pressed to find him condescending. It's just the Internet, take it for what it's worth.

 

[Diesel Freak]

Hamilton Wrote:


Getting closer I believe. We not only want the pressure wave (hopefully a high pressure) to hit the valve at the right time we NEED it to be the correct amplitude to act as a ramming effect even with forced induction.

DF wrote:


The elimination of reversion would most likely take place with a higher induction pressure charge than the cylinder pressure upon IVO. However we can only limit it by raising the rpms with longer duration camshafts which provide efficient breathing a higher rpms anyhow. If you have a variable designed rocker you can "extend" the lobe duration or by floating the valve. This can be controlled by ramp rates both acceleration and decelerations. We will always have some level of charge contamination due to reversion.



Are you speaking of the entire curtain area from seat to seat or to a certain lift?

Just to a certain lift...

 

[scat]

If you ever met Zach in person, you'd be hard pressed to find him condescending. It's just the Internet, take it for what it's worth.

Thats kinda like saying he's a A-hole but you'll get use to it. Just the way he comes off on here makes me not even look at his products anymore. $.02

 

[jkidd_39]

Thats kinda like saying he's a A-hole but you'll get use to it. Just the way he comes off on here makes me not even look at his products anymore. $.02

Even before I met Zack at a few events all I saw was how helpful he is with his products on CompD.. You know.. unless you are one of those guys that have no business installing a cam.. hurt your engine and then try to blame Zack for it..

He's a great guy... thats my 2 cents at least..

Now back on topic..

 

[Fahlin Racing]

A wise man that I can't recall who mentioned this... "Harmonic tuning is about pressure wave tuning at overlap" Anyone MUST remember you will never be able to 'balance' the harmonics of an engine period, vibrations yes we can limit, but harmonics no.

Now Hamilton, your idea there I am seeing a pull truck manifold? I am curious to your beliefs as to applications because one intake certainly can not be tuned to fit more than one style of racing reaching optmum efficiency at each competition.

DF, why stop at a certain lift when our valve cycles once at peak lift, twice at mid and twice at low? Our tuned venturi is designed to enhance the flow at all points as is the manifold runners are that converge on the valve bowl. I would say to a certain lift for maybe a low rpm setup due to low lift is more desirable because high rpm utilizes higher lifts, then again the complete seat to seat time is influencial.

 

[renopker]

Were do you buy a manifold tuner ? looked on Google I found guitar tuners but no manifold tuner. can you post a picture of yours?

 

[Diesel Freak]

A wise man that I can't recall who mentioned this... "Harmonic tuning is about pressure wave tuning at overlap" Anyone MUST remember you will never be able to 'balance' the harmonics of an engine period, vibrations yes we can limit, but harmonics no.

Now Hamilton, your idea there I am seeing a pull truck manifold? I am curious to your beliefs as to applications because one intake certainly can not be tuned to fit more than one style of racing reaching optmum efficiency at each competition.

DF, why stop at a certain lift when our valve cycles once at peak lift, twice at mid and twice at low? Our tuned venturi is designed to enhance the flow at all points as is the manifold runners are that converge on the valve bowl. I would say to a certain lift for maybe a low rpm setup due to low lift is more desirable because high rpm utilizes higher lifts, then again the complete seat to seat time is influencial.

Why? I was keeping it simple...

now if you want to reference seat to seat time and included lift...you would also have to reference the crank angle and downward speed of the piston to also determine the generated pressure drop across the valve as the cylinder volume gets "larger".....

 

[seeker1056]

how bout practical examples rather than wordy theory

Take Hamiltons solid works example and expound on how to make it better

or show us your own best designs

pick a cam, calculate the cam intake events, rocker geometry/ratio, pick a workable rpm range, for whatever use, be it pulling racing dyno queen or other dedicated run

then apply your theories and thoughts and calculations for runner length, diameter, taper or no taper, reversion prevention, transistions etc etc etc

one of you might even have a lightbulb moment that rocks things up

costs nothin to do this on paper - might even be fun

some of us will laugh at you others will contribute

:redx:

 

[child9]

Here is the tuner requested.

You may also need one of these.

I don't think I'm over stepping my bounds when I explain that, in the case of the manifold for the rail, the focuses are flow, weight, and resonance tuning, in that order. For the typical street setup the resonance is most likely not to be bothered with, since the advantages it provides are diminished as compared to the gains in an NA application. The rail itself is an experiment, and this is merely the first variant.

Ultimately we are covering new ground and any discoveries that are made and can be effectively applied to Hamilton products will be. If they cannot, then they won't. Either way I don't necessarily care, since my primary focus is designing and building the quickest diesel powered vehicle on the planet. On the other hand I do care, because if Hamilton is doing well, then I am doing well. If we are successful, then we all win, because diesel technology is advanced.

 

[renopker]

About time we see something real.

 

[child9]

I meant to include this earlier, but here it is anyway, Fahlin.

According to general physics "Each natural frequency that an object or instrument produces has its own characteristic vibrational mode or standing wave pattern. These patterns are only created within the object or instrument at specific frequencies of vibration; these frequencies are known as harmonic frequencies, or merely harmonics. At any frequency other than a harmonic frequency, the resulting disturbance of the medium is irregular and non-repeating." according to physicsclassroom.com.

Harmonics are vibrations, they are simply the specific frequencies that, based on the specific physical characteristics associated with said object, cause it to vibrate in such a manner that a standing wave is produced. I'll show a standing wave vibrating at some frequency. When the harmonic frequencies of vibration are reached the nodes stay still and you can clearly see the amplitude of the standing wave and physically measure the wavelength. In this example of a transverse wave, I show three nodes. This means that the frequency it is vibrating at is three times what the frequency would be if that line was one long "football" instead of three. The frequency it displays this "3rd harmonic" is related to the density, length, and tension of the string. What I found particularly interesting in this video was that any deflection I caused in one part of the wave was reflected and duplicated in each subsequent part of the waveform. Please understand that what you see here is merely a simple demonstration of some fundamental wave characteristics and is not intended for use as a solution to any specific real-world problem. It's just cool.


Also: please disregard the kid in the background playing the drums on his knees. :/

[ame]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g93/ckassem/IMG_0329_zpsbffe1106.mp4[/ame]

 

[Fahlin Racing]

Why? I was keeping it simple...

now if you want to reference seat to seat time and included lift...you would also have to reference the crank angle and downward speed of the piston to also determine the generated pressure drop across the valve as the cylinder volume gets "larger".....

Yeah, understandable, the KISS principle has a good grasp. What would you say about piston's time at TDC on the flow's behavior DF? Longer rods tend to allow more time for the piston to temporaly reside at TDC. If we were to shorten the rod would we be able to evacuate quicker due to high piston speed or are we able to tune the camshaft to the runners and not even worry about rod and piston assembly overall design?

how bout practical examples rather than wordy theory

Take Hamiltons solid works example and expound on how to make it better

or show us your own best designs

pick a cam, calculate the cam intake events, rocker geometry/ratio, pick a workable rpm range, for whatever use, be it pulling racing dyno queen or other dedicated run

then apply your theories and thoughts and calculations for runner length, diameter, taper or no taper, reversion prevention, transistions etc etc etc

one of you might even have a lightbulb moment that rocks things up

costs nothin to do this on paper - might even be fun

some of us will laugh at you others will contribute

Seeming my reply to elaborate on Hamilton's design by provoking an innovative bone. Thats exactly what I am doing, provoking EXTREME ENGINE TECH seeker, about time somebody catches on to make this forum stand up to its title. However the contructive criticism that lingers here on CompD is usually bashing rather than actual inovative inspiration. Which is unfortnate.

My thought on Hamilton's piece was a low to mid rpm rang design. No problem with that at all. As he mentioned its adjustable, to what point of tuning I don't know. Unless that plenum can supply a drag racing engine's lungs and shorten the runners enough to display performance at a raised rpm level. However as rpms rise with HP & TQ our reliability becomes lower and lower due to the severe duties or racing or pulling etc. With a compact design you only have so much space to produce a heat transfer rate to a certain extent and if you run high high boost do you really want to run a compact surface area limited cooling/intake meshed type of unit? I believe the more boost you run, the more area you should have to cool adequately which the heavy truck industry has been employing for numerous years already with A2A or A2W designs.

I like Hamilton's design for one reason, its adjustable for its operation range. What operation range that may be, he had not stated. There are numerous designs out there, he generously contibuted to the subject, as which can be questioned by anyone because of the whole innovative curiousity embedded in our gearhead brains. Shouldn't be any problem with that.

Child9, thats a great addition to the topic!

Anybody, a thought of mine. What are the efficiency differences between air & water style coolers, just curious because majority of truck manufacturers use A2A, is it because the simple fact that the ease of employing the system or is the water intercooler as efficient and just more difficult to design into a manifold?

 

[Fahlin Racing]

Were do you buy a manifold tuner ? looked on Google I found guitar tuners but no manifold tuner. can you post a picture of yours?

You can tune a manifold by flowbench and die grinder or extrude honing etc. You imagination rules this realm, people just need to view if its a good direction or bad direction.

For those who haven't seen or heard of the Coanda effect, more interms of flow that can occur among parts in the system.

The Coanda Effect - YouTube

 

[renopker]

You can tune a manifold by flowbench and die grinder or extrude honing etc. You imagination rules this realm, people just need to view if its a good direction or bad direction.

For those who haven't seen or heard of the Coanda effect, more interms of flow that can occur among parts in the system.

The Coanda Effect - YouTube

Lets see some examples of your work now that we have all the theory sounds like we all will be blow en away.Unless this is just key board racing.
the problem with theory is it can be flawed.

 

[child9]

"You can tune a manifold by flowbench and die grinder or extrude honing etc."

How do you tune an intake in this manner? What are you tuning it for? From my experience, a traditional flow bench can only show you static flow numbers, which, in the context of the quote, can give you some idea if gains to static flow were had by proper die porting or AFM. To my knowledge, that has no effect on resonance tuning whatsoever.

 

[oldestof11]

Anybody, a thought of mine. What are the efficiency differences between air & water style coolers, just curious because majority of truck manufacturers use A2A, is it because the simple fact that the ease of employing the system or is the water intercooler as efficient and just more difficult to design into a manifold?

A2A is because of KISS and it id typically moving when under power. However, the 6.7L scorpion in Ford trucks now use A2W.

 

[Fahlin Racing]

Lets see some examples of your work now that we have all the theory sounds like we all will be blow en away.Unless this is just key board racing.
the problem with theory is it can be flawed.

If you see my thoughts as a 'blown away' in sarcasm you misunderstand my point. Its all a basic understanding plain and simple with the complexity laying in the transformation of the process. I would post something, however I don't have solid works or any other high tech computer program like most here. I am old school No.2 pencil and graph paper drawn in 3 dimensional perspective. If my scanner worked something would be up, no biggie there. I will work on that here when able renopker.

Every theory can be flawed until the tools and testing display what is, no disagreement there. Interesting discussions.

Child9 wrote:

How do you tune an intake in this manner? What are you tuning it for? From my experience, a traditional flow bench can only show you static flow numbers, which, in the context of the quote, can give you some idea if gains to static flow were had by proper die porting or AFM. To my knowledge, that has no effect on resonance tuning whatsoever.

Yes flowbench will show the static rating, however a flowbench without flowballs or other tools to view port activity of the EFA you can alter by changing CSA in portions of the runner. If a shape is changed ahead of flow you can change your Effective Flow Area up stream, depending on how much you will need to test with internal tools and view flow rates of our air charge mass proceeding through the intake system. If there is mainly a pressure driven view of flow or wave driven view there are many ways to tune not just the port, from valve seat to intake plenum runner entry, but, each person has a different view. I do like your thoughts Child9, please continue with the resonance tech. I haven't had the time to jump into that as deep as you have seem to, if the resonance does not change then the change in CSA didn't change enough to effect it.

oldestof11 wrote:

However, the 6.7L scorpion in Ford trucks now use A2W.

Really, then maybe the method has a great effect as A2A if Ford is using the A2W. Thats kool. Hmmm I will have to do some reading on the aftercooling of the induction pretty interesting.

op:

 

[NyCowboy87]

Great info guys, I have leared a ton just sitting back and reading what you all have to say.

I was always under the impression a2w coolers were more efficient, problem being that the air could only be cooled to what engine coolant temp was. Unless you have a drag/pulling rig and run an ice box with chilled water or some other sorts of cooling the fluid (seperate radiator) it makes an a2a more desireable on the street. With an a2a temps can be seen within 10-15* of ambient temp given you have enough air moving across the cooler surface and/or depending on cooler size and charge temp.