it's scary what can be found in an ECM

The way Im reading all this is cummins knows what stock injectors flow at a particular mm3, hence knowing a specified volume being injected? If this is true, with larger injectors,until we know the flow at specified pressures and durations all we can do is use mm3 as a reference? Just adjust till desired results are achieved.

tapatalking from droidx
 
this was some good stuff. Now, if you guys wouldn't mind starting over. Except this time, it's about timing :rockwoot:

Can you believe the main timing in this table !!! Discuss ?? Really though, I made it that bad.


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I next to nill about efi and cr's. On a stock truck, stock tuning, would the 140mm3, be 140 mm3 of fuel injected?
 
icemanjc1 said:
So, is he stealing tunes from someone else? Stealing from Cummins? You pissed because he's having success and bragging about it? Rich is cocky, sure, but it seems like he delivers. I can't knock him for that, I might be the same if I were in his position, I won't line up against him either. Most of us that are tuning, Cummins base tune is not even close to being recognizable. I just don't understand the comment about "build a tune you can call your own".
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On this, if I'm coming off as cocky, I apologize, as it's not my intent at all.

Those that have met me will tell you I'm far from being cocky, but what you'll never see me do is back down because it might "piss off the old guard".

If I piss someone off, well, so be it. Deal with it, it's the friggin' internet.

:Cheer:
 
zstroken said:
I next to nill about efi and cr's. On a stock truck, stock tuning, would the 140mm3, be 140 mm3 of fuel injected?
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No, it's not.

Look at the table below. This is the main injection duration on the OEM map.The two axis' are mm3's and pressure.

Just as an example....look across the second row of data, where it's 1 mm3. If what they were saying was correct, how would you have 1mm3 with duration of 160 uS at pressures ranging from 5803 psi to 26110 psi? You wouldn't, you'd get a different quantity of fuel at each point. While duration is staying the same, pressure is increased....pretty simple physics there....if the time remains the same, but I increase the pressure applied, you WILL get different volumes.

Slide2-23.jpg
 
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The other thing you can look at on that table is the pressure values....

What does and 06/07 common rail idle at? About 7200 psi.

The entire left side of the table under 7200 is basically unused. This is all area that, if you want, you can completely reconfigure into usable data so that you have more accuracy when you're putting the tune together.
 
Here is what MY main duration looks like before I start tuning on it.

LReiff.....see anything that you were asking for here....all zeros. Yeah, now I'm being cocky.

Anyways, this table is setup so that I have a LOT more accuracy in the areas that the truck uses the most, all the daily driving ranges, up to about 70mm3. After that I'm a lot less concerned about the drivability, all I want is power.

So in the ranges ABOVE the 70mm3 value, I simply want it to get the fugg down when I go WOT, so it gets less space on the map.

On a pure race truck, I do it very different. I make the table so it idles and it's drivable, but the top end of the map gets more bandwidth vs the daily driving ranges.

DurationTable1.jpg
 
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I'd sure like to see JSP's tables to see how they compare. I understand if it was all built from scratch, not wanting to put it out there. It sounds like though, it reveals more than we're seeing.

I don't know much yet but, I can back up Rich's claim about his tune. I've gone through every part of it thinking there was more needing to be done. Other than adjusting tables, his tunes are 95% +/- redone.
 
mm3 is flow volume and the complete tune is based off it. I'm not even going to get into timing tables.
 
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Cummin-a-long said:
if you want, you can completely reconfigure into usable data so that you have more accuracy when you're putting the tune together.
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This is exactly what I've been doing lately. And if I may ask Rich, but why would you scale your uS table to 160mm3? Why not 130mm3? I have mine topped out at 130mm3 (and have my TP% setup accordingly) because that's usually the lowest it dips in the higher rpm's and high rail pressure. Are you really fine tuning that much on top end?
 
icemanjc1 said:
I suppose if we each had calibration charts for the oversized injectors that we run, we could change the mm3 axis points to show/make it actual. Point taken. But the way it looks to me...

said injector at this pressure and volume = this many mm3/stroke
fuel_map.png


No way stock injectors put out the same volume as oversized % injectors, just obvious. What we do with mm3 in EFI live is use it as a reference point for most everything. Shifting parameters, throttle sensitivity, timing, duration, etc. Idle~15mm3, 100% throttle~145mm3. If you know exactly what your injectors flow, you could adjust the mm3 axis to reflect your more accurate reference points. But in the end, it's still a phucking reference point in which to adjust everything else. If you tuned your truck right, it's still going to run like you want at WOT, whether it's labeled 145mm3 or 180mm3.



So, is he stealing tunes from someone else? Stealing from Cummins? You pissed because he's having success and bragging about it? Rich is cocky, sure, but it seems like he delivers. I can't knock him for that, I might be the same if I were in his position, I won't line up against him either. Most of us that are tuning, Cummins base tune is not even close to being recognizable. I just don't understand the comment about "build a tune you can call your own".
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Like I said before I don't care how you scale your mm3's if you use a calibrated data set or you are just winging it in the dark, that "Reference" is to fuel volume.


zstroken said:
I next to nill about efi and cr's. On a stock truck, stock tuning, would the 140mm3, be 140 mm3 of fuel injected?
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YES!!! Yes it is, Cuminhispants dead wrong again.........LMFAO And to boot he has no idea how to figure it out.....LOL



Cummin-a-long said:
No, it's not.

Look at the table below. This is the main injection duration on the OEM map.The two axis' are mm3's and pressure.

Just as an example....look across the second row of data, where it's 1 mm3. If what they were saying was correct, how would you have 1mm3 with duration of 160 uS at pressures ranging from 5803 psi to 26110 psi? You wouldn't, you'd get a different quantity of fuel at each point. While duration is staying the same, pressure is increased....pretty simple physics there....if the time remains the same, but I increase the pressure applied, you WILL get different volumes.

Slide2-23.jpg
Click to expand...


Finally and completely shown your stupidity. LOL Buddy's putting on a clinic and has no phucking idea......LOL
 
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A stock 325hp motor WILL NOT use 140mm3 at rated speed, more like 120mm3. The 140mm3 on the table is a "reference" and it is "desired" fuel quantity. What Rich is saying, its useless to change the map to use the "actual" mm3 that your injectors flow, because its irrelevant. You can scale the map from 1mm3 to 20mm3 and still make power, because if you have 160mpa on the rail with 2500us pulse, its injecting a helluva lot more fuel than 20mm3. The tune will work fine as long as the throttle position and the other tables are set up to work off of 1-20mm3 instead of 1-140mm3.
 
Its 129mm3 for the 5.9 to be exact. AND it is FUEL VOLUME.

Cuminhispants posted a stock table just like Dan had referenced.
 
JWhite said:
A stock 325hp motor WILL NOT use 140mm3 at rated speed, more like 120mm3. The 140mm3 on the table is a "reference" and it is "desired" fuel quantity. What Rich is saying, its useless to change the map to use the "actual" mm3 that your injectors flow, because its irrelevant. You can scale the map from 1mm3 to 20mm3 and still make power, because if you have 160mpa on the rail with 2500us pulse, its injecting a helluva lot more fuel than 20mm3. The tune will work fine as long as the throttle position and the other tables are set up to work off of 1-20mm3 instead of 1-140mm3.
Click to expand...


Is it useless? Or just not needed? It sounds more along the lines of a scaling issue. I know if I tell a pump to pump 200 GPM, it would be nice to type in 200 and it would work. Versus having to look up on a cheat sheet and know that to get 200 I put in 5 to get 400 I put in 10.

I agree that at more pressure you will get more flow, but why do they use the mm3? Is it a baseline that the mm3 is at a fixed pressure in the ecm. So at a known PSI and duration you will inject the mm3?

Seems more along the lines of keeping things in check/scaled then actual functionality.

Kind of the calibration issue, when setting up drives etc, you can make everything make sense, follow through with all of your units and scaling. It makes it nice for folks that follow you to be able to see where the issue is.

Of course I could just stand there with a flow meter, and make up a cheat sheet for an operator to enter in the data.
 
Okay, I'm done arguing with Oneshortofasixpack, as his own quote shows he's a FUGGIN' TARD and can't read!

Go across just the friggin 150mm3 value on the chart. WHAT THE FUGG do you see?

Look at it Cheapsixpack....fuggin' look!....The EXACT SAME VOLUME OF FUEL IS INJECTED 7 TIMES! You know what it based on? PRESSURE AND DURATION FOR THAT INJECTOR! PRESSURE AND DURATION EQUAL A SPECIFIC INJECTED QUANTITY.

This is an example of ONE...FUGGIN' ONE...set of injectors.

At a given pressure and a given pulsewidth, you get a SPECIFIC VOLUME OF FUEL INJECTED GIVEN THAT PARTICULAR SIZE OF INJECTOR.

If this specific set of injectors was run at 140 MPa for 3000 uS, what would the INJECTED fuel volume be? ALMOST 450 mm3/stroke!

If this specific injector was used and we applied your retarded azz theory to it, we'd have no reason to apply more than 1000 uS of duration at 140 MPa to run the truck at the same power as a stock truck. And that's not the case.

fuel_map.png


That's it! That's the last I'm arguing with your azz.

It's one thing to be stubborn, it's a whole 'nother to be stump dumb.
 
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Joesixpack has been putting down more power and tuning HIS OWN Cummins EFI setup longer than 99% of the people on here. I would take his advice
 
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