it's scary what can be found in an ECM

[duck_04]

Wow that is unprofessional, not to mention childish. I thought better of you Rich.

I think he handled it very well. Their is no doubt he knows what he is doing. He will be getting a call from me once SCI tuning is released.

 

[Smoken Gun]

I am sure both parties involved were extremely frustrated when trying to get their point across, but when it fell into constant insults from both sides and posts with what seemed like almost every other word capitalized it started to leave a bad taste in my mouth. It became harder to read and more of a hassle to try and learn from. Just my worthless opinion.

There is a whole lot of knowledge being displayed this thread, but when people fight in the mud they all get dirty.

 

[triton]

That's the greatest thing ever!! :bow:

I would really just like to spend a day with you and just try to learn anything and everything about EFI Live.

It would take more than a day you unload his head. I've worked with him for about a month just through emails and have more info than I know what to do with ! Now after this thread, it's doubled :snoop:

 

[Cummin-a-long]

Wow that is unprofessional, not to mention childish. I thought better of you Rich.

I am sure both parties involved were extremely frustrated when trying to get their point across, but when it fell into constant insults from both sides and posts with what seemed like almost every other word capitalized it started to leave a bad taste in my mouth. It became harder to read and more of a hassle to try and learn from. Just my worthless opinion.


There is a whole lot of knowledge being displayed this thread, but when people fight in the mud they all get dirty.

Yes, you're right....absolutely. And for that I do certainly apologize.

But, there's only so much boats, ho's and taco's nonsense that I'll deal with. It's one of the reasons I don't frequent this particular forum.

The level of "professionalism" is not what it used to be. You have a handful of really, REALLY intelligent guys and then you have a great big collection of professional smart azzes.

You have the guys that are actually EXTREMELY competent and then you have the ones that have NOTHING to offer except This. Is. CompD. And unfortunately, that latter is the big crowd.

So, again, I do apologize. You are correct.

 

[Cummin-a-long]

It would take more than a day you unload his head. I've worked with him for about a month just through emails and have more info than I know what to do with ! Now after this thread, it's doubled :snoop:

And THAT, is my intent.

If it wasn't for the random insertion of peanut gallery smart azzes that like to stir the pot, this would have been, for the most part, a pretty intelligent conversation.

But, I digress.

 

[Bustedknuckles]

The level of "professionalism" is not what it used to be. You have a handful of really, REALLY intelligent guys and then you have a great big collection of professional smart azzes.

You have the guys that are actually EXTREMELY competent and then you have the ones that have NOTHING to offer except This. Is. CompD. And unfortunately, that latter is the big crowd.
.

X infinity..........

 

[holsky]

It would take more than a day you unload his head. I've worked with him for about a month just through emails and have more info than I know what to do with ! Now after this thread, it's doubled :snoop:

Ohhh yeah I totally agree but I figured I would only have enough money to spend one day with him so I'd have to lean everything I could. LOL


But it would be amazing to have this kind of knowledge about this and work with it every day. That would be a dream job, but I'm sure it does get frustrating at times when a truck acts stubborn and doesn't respond like it should to what you are trying to tell it to do.

 

[JWhite]

Absolutley.....the injection rate of the heui injection system has been far from desirable. I've heard of a couple shops really bringing them along.
Used to keep an eye on Charles progress with his 7.3.....poor bastard still at ~700......for a guy that smart it just isn't coming together.

Fixed it.

 

[GADieselGTO]

If you take the approach that mm3 is actual and start by correcting it then the rest of the tuning process is simple. Carry on with the smoke and mirror theory if you wish, its amusing!

The thing is you cannot change all the mm3 axis breakpoints in a duramax tune only the rpm ones. i can see benefit in changing the axis breakpoints in some cases as it would make it easier. If you can set it close to reality, great. But honestly not necessary to make a great running truck. Correct pressure and duration is absolutely necessary to make a truck run good. MM3 is a reference only that the factory scaled probably acccurately to make tuning easier. So that is what im saying. It may make tuning easier, but at the end of the day mm3 of fuel is a reference, whether it is accurate or not, just a reference.

What i was saying about being hilarious is all the arguing as your learning the ropes of EFILive. some of you obvously know what your talking about, and i hope you didnt take that as an insult to your intellligence, because thats not the way i meant it. Carry on

 

[JasonCzerak]

And yet, you are still hung up on the quantity REFERENCED in the tune.

Here, here's a table for ya....

Oh, I know....tragic.

There's one more screen name I'm waiting to see pop up without anything constructive.

You're missing a finger.

 

[triton]

The thing is you cannot change all the mm3 axis breakpoints in a duramax tune only the rpm ones. i can see benefit in changing the axis breakpoints in some cases as it would make it easier. If you can set it close to reality, great. But honestly not necessary to make a great running truck. Correct pressure and duration is absolutely necessary to make a truck run good. MM3 is a reference only that the factory scaled probably acccurately to make tuning easier. So that is what im saying. It may make tuning easier, but at the end of the day mm3 of fuel is a reference, whether it is accurate or not, just a reference.

That what I'm thinking...... Dodge/Cummins/Bosch... they all put likely millions into R&D building this stuff. Why not take advantage of the work they already did and build from it. There's no reason to start completely from scratch as some mention.

Major props to JSP for doing it all on his own. Unfortunately, not many of us have that kind of knowledge so, IMHO the EFI interface opened up the door for us to do it too

 

[zstroken]

That what I'm thinking...... Dodge/Cummins/Bosch... they all put likely millions into R&D building this stuff. Why not take advantage of the work they already did and build from it. There's no reason to start completely from scratch as some mention.

Major props to JSP for doing it all on his own. Unfortunately, not many of us have that kind of knowledge so, IMHO the EFI interface opened up the door for us to do it too

If they put millions into R&D and use the calibrations in mm3, do you think they just do it for no reason? Maybe each "m" is for a million? LOL

Results can be gotten either way as it has been proven.

I think Doghouse has eluded that it is much quicker to not maintain the mm3 as an actual value and just use it as a reference. So there is some validity into why he drops the true scaling on the mm3.

 

[triton]

If they put millions into R&D and use the calibrations in mm3, do you think they just do it for no reason? Maybe each "m" is for a million? LOL

Results can be gotten either way as it has been proven.

I think Doghouse has eluded that it is much quicker to not maintain the mm3 as an actual value and just use it as a reference. So there is some validity into why he drops the true scaling on the mm3.

I wasn't talking about the mm3 but, more the way it all works in general. PIDs are a whole other story and it seems there's not a lot of need to mess with them. Unless.....you're working from scratch like JSP does.

I didn't see what he said as eluding, what I got from this is... there's two different ways of looking at the exact same thing.

 

[JasonCzerak]

That what I'm thinking...... Dodge/Cummins/Bosch... they all put likely millions into R&D building this stuff. Why not take advantage of the work they already did and build from it. There's no reason to start completely from scratch as some mention.

It's ok for me to modify my own tables on my own truck. However, it's not ok for anyone to take these tables and resell them if there are "any" parts copied over from the stock OEM tables. However, if I give someone a copy of these tables to modify them and they send them back, that's ok.

IP in this situation is fuked up. I hear some manufactures are starting to encrypt these ECU's. That's a load of chit IMHO. Everyone should be able to wave their warranty and have an un-locked ECU. The same dhit with the phones being locked is retarded (yes, even apple's retarded). The key here is the expectation of support to be waved is logical post user-modification.

 

[LReiff]

It's ok for me to modify my own tables on my own truck. However, it's not ok for anyone to take these tables and resell them if there are "any" parts copied over from the stock OEM tables. However, if I give someone a copy of these tables to modify them and they send them back, that's ok.

IP in this situation is fuked up. I hear some manufactures are starting to encrypt these ECU's. That's a load of chit IMHO. Everyone should be able to wave their warranty and have an un-locked ECU. The same dhit with the phones being locked is retarded (yes, even apple's retarded). The key here is the expectation of support to be waved is logical post user-modification.

I agree 100%.

If I buy a used ecm from salvage is the software that it contains still property of the manufacture? According to US patent law, what is the percentage change required to get around the patent? Do patent laws apply here?

 

[zstroken]

I wasn't talking about the mm3 but, more the way it all works in general. PIDs are a whole other story and it seems there's not a lot of need to mess with them. Unless.....you're working from scratch like JSP does.

I didn't see what he said as eluding, what I got from this is... there's two different ways of looking at the exact same thing.

LOL, I had a typo. Alluded is what I meant. LOL as in suggesting it.

Sorry!

 

[HotRodTractor]

Absolutley.....the injection rate of the huei injection system has been far from desirable. I've heard of a couple shops really bringing them along.
Used to keep an eye on Charles progress with his 7.3.....poor bastard still at ~700......for a guy that smart it just isn't coming together.

Chuck has had some other issues that just keeps him from pushing it any further - pretty sure he is converting the beast over to CR injection now.

 

[JasonCzerak]

I agree 100%.

If I buy a used ecm from salvage is the software that it contains still property of the manufacture? According to US patent law, what is the percentage change required to get around the patent? Do patent laws apply here?

not sure of the %, but even just a few lines of code in a 10 million line application can cause IP lawsuits.

Check out SCO's retarded waste of our legal system for the past 15 years.

 

[Joesixpack]

No, it's not.

Look at the table below. This is the main injection duration on the OEM map.The two axis' are mm3's and pressure.

Just as an example....look across the second row of data, where it's 1 mm3. If what they were saying was correct, how would you have 1mm3 with duration of 160 uS at pressures ranging from 5803 psi to 26110 psi? You wouldn't, you'd get a different quantity of fuel at each point. While duration is staying the same, pressure is increased....pretty simple physics there....if the time remains the same, but I increase the pressure applied, you WILL get different volumes.

So I already showed you how the mm3's are calculated AND that it is indeed VOLUME FUEL.

The reason the table only limits to 160us is that is the lower energization limit of the injector. 140us for example injects zero mm3's.

ECM's work in fuel volume whether its "calibrated" or not. It's not even debatable and have no idea why I even bothered.

I don't care if what you throw into the tables and how you tune it, once your happy with the calibration, the ECM is dealing with fuel volume that is correct.

 

[Flashscan]

That what I'm thinking...... Dodge/Cummins/Bosch... they all put likely millions into R&D building this stuff.

That is a very good point. I can't speak for FORD because I've never looked at how FORD Diesel ECM's work, but for the Duramax, across two Delphi ECM's and one Bosch ECM they all generate the final pulse time via a desired mm3 vs rail pressure table, Cummins of course being the same as well.

On the gasser side of the fence, all the GM ECM's use a 2D injector flow table, the value of which is converted to an injector pulse time via a fixed calculation (no lookup table) using desired fuel mass (0 to 2047 mg) and Injector Flow rate (0 to 7.9998 mg/mS).
The nice part about doing it this way is if you swap the injectors all that needs to be done is change the injector flow table to match the injector flow data from the manufacturer and everything lines up again.
There must be a valid reason why the OEM's decided not to do the Diesel ECM's this way. Joesixpack's standalone sounds like it might be different in that aspect? (I don't know, I've never seen one).

If we compare the pulse table values on a few different engines it might open up some open up some further errr.....discussions .
6.7L, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1112uS
LB7, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1269uS
5.9L, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1344uS
LLY, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1452uS

Cheers,
Ross