it's scary what can be found in an ECM

[Flashscan]

IP in this situation is fuked up. I hear some manufactures are starting to encrypt these ECU's. That's a load of chit IMHO. Everyone should be able to wave their warranty and have an un-locked ECU.

In Europe the OEM's are going to great lengths to stop people messing with the ECM's. Some of that has filtered in to the US market, LML (Bosch) ECM can no longer be read, Cummins RSA implemented on the 2010+, I believe this is also on the late model Hemi ECM too.
It does make you wonder though, imagine they started making vehicles with the engine enclosed in a tamper proof enclosure!

Fiddling with the maps in the ECM probably doesn't violate any IP, however, if you designed your own ECM and used the OEM's code (or part of it) to run your ECM then for sure that would be in violation.

 

[Joesixpack]

No, my reference to calculations is only in respect towered limitations and air/fuel ratio.

My point being the injector conversion table is not the source of the injection quantity, the ECM already has this volume it wants before it it goes to the lookup table.

The Injector conversion table or (pulsewidth table) does no more than converting the quantity asked for by the ECM to time (us).

Reason being in the past the raw calculation was to CPU intensive to do in real time, therefore relying on lookup tables.

Coming down the pipe however from SAE research are thoughts of doing it in real time along with individual combustion sensors and complete closed loop combustion control. Don't know of any oems attempting it yet....could be.

The data you provided looks to be inline with general nozzle size. Very interesting comparison. Time being the enemy to common rail power production at high rpm.

^^ Interesting point towards the future, The company I deal with on my stand alone in Europe has already pointed out in a conversation that there has been some new ecm's that have proven to be tamper proof....(along with their inside OEM knowledge of the direction they are headed).

Looking into the crystal ball, piggy backed solutions like I've done say with even EFI live capable ecm's could be some slight of hand around that.

 

[Joesixpack]

Missed a point, on the injector change. Yes with the stand alone it's so simple, just swap injector conversion tables with the new set and bingo you have your original calibration, nothing else changed.

One single value to change on max mm3 to your new HP goal and the whole tune now revolves around that new max point. As mm3's are stil mm3's the injector conversion table corrects this.

Example if your engine requires 20mm3's to idle, changing injectors did not change this fact. The new injector conversion table outputs the correct time for the new injectors.

 

[Flashscan]

Example if your engine requires 20mm3's to idle, changing injectors did not change this fact. The new injector conversion table outputs the correct time for the new injectors.

Yeah and I guess this is a short fall as far as simplified tuning for the OEM computers, such a table does not exist. Really the only people that could answer why that is the case is Bosch, Delphi etc. Please don't take this as a criticism to your standalone, but I question why corporations like Bosch and Delphi who have spent countless millions on Diesel R&D didn't implement something like a typical injector flow table as found in a gas ECM.

 

[Joesixpack]

That is a very good point. I can't speak for FORD because I've never looked at how FORD Diesel ECM's work, but for the Duramax, across two Delphi ECM's and one Bosch ECM they all generate the final pulse time via a desired mm3 vs rail pressure table, Cummins of course being the same as well.

On the gasser side of the fence, all the GM ECM's use a 2D injector flow table, the value of which is converted to an injector pulse time via a fixed calculation (no lookup table) using desired fuel mass (0 to 2047 mg) and Injector Flow rate (0 to 7.9998 mg/mS).
The nice part about doing it this way is if you swap the injectors all that needs to be done is change the injector flow table to match the injector flow data from the manufacturer and everything lines up again.
There must be a valid reason why the OEM's decided not to do the Diesel ECM's this way. Joesixpack's standalone sounds like it might be different in that aspect (I don't know, I've never seen one).

If we compare the pulse table values on a few different engines it might open up some open up some further errr.....discussions .
6.7L, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1112uS
LB7, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1269uS
5.9L, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1344uS
LLY, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1452uS

Cheers,
Ross

I was thinking about your post today again and it occurred to me that the reason why a Diesel injector can't be represented by a 2D table and fixed calculation is the flow is not linear. My experience with gasser tunes is NILL but my guess is a gasser injector sees only one pressure, AND that pressure is very low in respect to diesels. With the high pressure difference 60Mpa vs 220Mpa that the diesel is pressurized to changes its density also effecting output.

Yeah and I guess this is a short fall as far as simplified tuning for the OEM computers, such a table does not exist. Really the only people that could answer why that is the case is Bosch, Delphi etc. Please don't take this as a criticism to your standalone, but I question why corporations like Bosch and Delphi who have spent countless millions on Diesel R&D didn't implement something like a typical injector flow table as found in a gas ECM.

Ok.....it still seems were not on the same page........could you please clarify...

What efi calls the "Pulsewidth table" or what I call the injector conversion table IS in fact the the energization map for that specific injector inside the engine.

Example stock truck, stock tune, stock injectors. I go pull my tune and there I have it........stock injector calibration.

The pulsewidth table outputting (TIME)us for the input quantity mm3 vs pressure point.


Now this is why I say changing injectors is so easy when you have this table.


6.7L, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1112uS
LB7, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1269uS
5.9L, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1344uS
LLY, 60mm3 @ 70MPa FP = 1452uS

For example.....with these injectors you listed.

They all will have their respective injector energization table mapped in the ecm. With that in mind, I can take a Cummins 6.7 and throw inside of it Duramax LLY injectors...(However also at the same time copying the Duramax injector energization table and throwing it in the Cummins 6.7 calibration)
(Ignoring the fact they won't fit or electrically could be different)

To that effect you have changed the injectors, updated the tune with the correct energization times, and the engine will start and run like nothing changed.

Now when the ECM is calling for 60mm3 it gives an energization time of 1452us instead of 1112us. 60mm3 IS 60mm3

BUT....you have just put smaller injectors in place and your energization table will max out before the tune will (to no ill effect for this example)


Now I KNOW this is the case, many conversations with Bosch engineers/Nira/Volvo and injector calibration has been the topic of many conversations.

AND from recent experience....when I put stock 5.9 injectors back in my truck I TOTALLY CHEATED....LOL I opened up a 5.9 tune with EFI and literately copied and pasted the energization table from EFI to my stand alone.

With that one single step was all it took to go from some of the largest injectors out there to bone stock. Turned the key and it ran perfect....of course the energization table matched the injectors.


NOW that's why I started recommending Exergy a long time ago, as they release flow data with their injectors and with this data you can build energization maps that actually reflect what the injectors flow.

 

[Flashscan]

I was thinking about your post today again and it occurred to me that the reason why a Diesel injector can't be represented by a 2D table and fixed calculation is the flow is not linear.

Funny, I thought the very same thing not long after I posted.

My experience with gasser tunes is NILL but my guess is a gasser injector sees only one pressure, AND that pressure is very low in respect to diesels.

They can see slight pressure changes and the flow tables are set up for that, but certainly nothing in the region (or even remotely close) to what the Diesel rail pressures are so this is probably why they can stick with a simpler calculation.

Ok.....it still seems were not on the same page........could you please clarify...

I think we were on the same page, I was just picturing in your after market ECM a map that was injector flow, as in a cc/min value, or whatever they might choose and not a pulse time. Expressing it as a uS injector opening time is still the "injector conversion table" in that you can take the pulse times from one engine/injector type to another, copy/paste the values and it will run as it did before.
That was along the lines of my gasser example, although simpler, an injector for a regular gas V8 might flow 3.18 grams/sec, one to suit E85 fuel might flow 4.16 grams/sec. If you take the E85 injector and swap it into the regular gas engine it will run rich because for the same opening time it's flowing more fuel. If you change the injector table from 3.18 to 4.16, the ECM's calculations will figure out that for a higher flow injector it needs to be open for less time for the same amount of fuel to be injected. Exactly what the Injector Pulse table is doing in the Diesel's. Except as we've both agreed it's not as simple because of the massive variance in Fuel Pressure and non-linear response of the injectors.

Cheers,
Ross

 

[James Stevens]

I agree

Yes, you're right....absolutely. And for that I do certainly apologize.

But, there's only so much boats, ho's and taco's nonsense that I'll deal with. It's one of the reasons I don't frequent this particular forum.

The level of "professionalism" is not what it used to be. You have a handful of really, REALLY intelligent guys and then you have a great big collection of professional smart azzes.

You have the guys that are actually EXTREMELY competent and then you have the ones that have NOTHING to offer except This. Is. CompD. And unfortunately, that latter is the big crowd.

So, again, I do apologize. You are correct.

I agree this use to be a good site, very rare U get a good thread anymore

 

[Flashscan]

This one ticks all the boxes doesn't it? Educational - Check, Entertaining - Check.

 

[triton]

I mentioned before..... if we could only have another round like this on timing!! the edutainment could go on and on :rockwoot:

 

[LReiff]

I mentioned before..... if we could only have another round like this on timing!! the edutainment could go on and on :rockwoot:

Give it time. Timing isn't so controversial, its simply degrees of rotation and there is a sensor for it. LOL

 

[triton]

Give it time. Timing isn't so controversial, its simply degrees of rotation and there is a sensor for it. LOL

True but, you know someone will say 50* is better than 20*. There's some scary looking timing maps out there including the stock one..... but they work. My pilot table is a good example. I bet I'm running more timing than most won't think is needed. The degree difference can be pretty large too without a whole lot of change.

 

[Kronk]

I agree this use to be a good site, very rare U get a good thread anymore

:thankyou2::clap::clap:

 

[HotRodTractor]

For all the guys whining about how this "isn't a good site anymore" - why do you keep coming back?

 

[doug60]

Triton
Why all the secrecy.
"I'm not pointing at any tuners out there, only wanting to show why when we run some programming, it can help to ruin, injectors and/or melt down a truck."
Telling all what each programer has to offer & or warn everyone of its scary programing, would seem to be the most important info.
And thats whats being left out here.
If its because its a EFI thread or COMP D rules . Lets that it to another venue.
Im more concerned about our injectors & pistons than any tune makers feelings!
doug

 

[JasonCzerak]

Funny, its ok to exploit and show the oem tables, but its suddenly BAD to show Smarty, other efilive, bullydog, etc tunes.

The efilive "locked tune" is the biggest hypocritical feature ive seen.

I say (and doug60): Damn the man, save the pistons!

Folks like Rich tuning and leaving it unlocked are the chit. Keep it up!

 

[Flashscan]

The efilive "locked tune" is the biggest hypocritical feature ive seen.

Jason, the lock feature was implemented through customer request only, just like back in 2003 (or whenever we first did LS1 tuning) tuners wanted to 'lock' ECM's from prying eyes, we've implemented it in some form or another on just about every ECM we support tuning on. I won't get in to the merits of that, we just provide the service to do so.
Interesting isn't it how we offered that read blocking feature on the 5.9L a year ago and apparently now at least one of the hand helds also does it after a recent update

 

[JasonCzerak]

Jason, the lock feature was implemented through customer request only, just like back in 2003 (or whenever we first did LS1 tuning) tuners wanted to 'lock' ECM's from prying eyes, we've implemented it in some form or another on just about every ECM we support tuning on. I won't get in to the merits of that, we just provide the service to do so.
Interesting isn't it how we offered that read blocking feature on the 5.9L a year ago and apparently now at least one of the hand helds also does it after a recent update

Customers are stupid. lol

You have the cummins and dmax markets locked up. However, On a gasser platform, does the read blocker work if another manufacture tries to read the ecm, or is it just a bit you flip to prevent other efilive programmers from reading the data?

 

[Cummin-a-long]

Folks like Rich tuning and leaving it unlocked are the chit. Keep it up!

Jason, I don't leave all of mine unlocked.

The only ones I leave unlocked are for the guys that are truly interested in fine tuning their trucks and have the ability to do so.

For the guy that doesn't demonstrate the ability to put 2 and 2 together, it gets locked....for THEIR protection and mine.

This is one of the reasons I only do a truck here and I don't do mail order tunes. The trucks owner will ALWAYS see what's I'm doing and will see the finished product, but that doesn't mean I'll leave all of them unlocked. Some folks are simply a danger to themselves, but will freely throw someone else under the bus when they break something.

As for showing other tuners tables and dropping names, that's just not the way to do it. The ones I used here, I covered all the data except to show specific points of contention and didn't say who's they were. If you want to know what YOUR tune is doing.....ask YOUR tuner. You paid the money for it, you should at least know whats going on.

 

[Cummin-a-long]

Customers are stupid. lol

You have the cummins and dmax markets locked up. However, On a gasser platform, does the read blocker work if another manufacture tries to read the ecm, or is it just a bit you flip to prevent other efilive programmers from reading the data?

Jason, all it is a setting we enable and it makes the ECM unable to be read. This is the case with the current Duramax, we can't even get a stock read.

You can write over it, but you can't read it.

 

[LReiff]

So you've read tune files from box tuners but now you lock someones ecm so your stuff cant be read? I don't lock anything, if a person pays me for what they get, it's their property!