mercedes om606 m112 eaton and hx52 holset

M

mantahead

RED DIESEL
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
97
hi,
i am building another drift car, last time i used the 5 cyclinder om605 with a hx35 holset and made 385bhp, now i am using the om606 6 cyclinder.
I have bought a m112 eaton supercharger and was wondering would a holset hx52 be a good match for it?
i am looking about 500bhp with as fast of spool up as possible.
I was going to feed the turbo intake with the supercharger with a divider flap at the turbo, is this the best way to pipe this?
utf-8BSU1HMDA5NjctMjAxMjA2MTktMTAwNi5qcGc.jpg


thanks.
 
Put blower directly onto engine and blow turbo into supercharger, look for supercharged cummins in here somewhere... Pretty much the same ideal
 
24vriviera said:
Put blower directly onto engine and blow turbo into supercharger, look for supercharged cummins in here somewhere... Pretty much the same ideal
Click to expand...

hi,
cheers, i must look for that.
have you seen Blacksmokeracing mercedes, they bolted the charger straight to the engine last year and fed it with the turbo, but now they have changed it to supercharger feeding the turbo. Can't get any info of them as to what worked best.
Some guys are telling me that its hot air i would be blowing in if the chargers straight on the inlet manifold and its more drag on the belt when the turbo comes on. They say that if the charger feeds the turbo, that once the turbo comes on the charger blows to atmosphere so it has little load or drag, plus all air entering the engine is through the intercooler.

I haven't any experience with win charging so i don't know.
I suppose there is pros and cons on both setups.
 
The way Carl said that seemed to work best was super feeding turbo. When the turbo spools, it pulls from the super. Once it starts pulling more than what the super can supply, it opens the diverter valve and pulls through there also.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
oldestof11 said:
The way Carl said that seemed to work best was super feeding turbo. When the turbo spools, it pulls from the super. Once it starts pulling more than what the super can supply, it opens the diverter valve and pulls through there also.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

hi,
thanks,
is Carl the guy with the twin charged cummins?
 
mantahead said:
I have bought a m112 eaton supercharger and was wondering would a holset hx52 be a good match for it?
Click to expand...
An HX50 will be plenty for 500hp. Using a 52 would add lag.

I was going to feed the turbo intake with the supercharger with a divider flap at the turbo, is this the best way to pipe this?
Click to expand...
No. That will cause a lot of inlet restriction for the turbo.
You need to feed the supercharger with the turbo and have a bypass around the supercharger. That will also help reduce the chance of turbo surge, helping it to spool up faster and live longer.

mantahead said:
They say that if the charger feeds the turbo, that once the turbo comes on the charger blows to atmosphere so it has little load or drag, plus all air entering the engine is through the intercooler.
Click to expand...
Pumps work on pressure differentials. Pumping from atmo to atmo is no different than pumping from 30psi to 30psi.
 
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oldestof11 said:
When the turbo spools, it pulls from the super. Once it starts pulling more than what the super can supply, it opens the diverter valve and pulls through there also.
Click to expand...

As I said before, that will cause excessive inlet restriction on the turbo as it has to pull a partial vacuum to open the diverter. That increases the pressure ratio of the turbo which causes increased drive pressures and EGTs.
 
mantahead said:
have you seen Blacksmokeracing mercedes, they bolted the charger straight to the engine last year and fed it with the turbo, but now they have changed it to supercharger feeding the turbo.
Click to expand...
And rest of a season they took Eaton away. I loan them my Nitrous system :)
 
Tormentor said:
As I said before, that will cause excessive inlet restriction on the turbo as it has to pull a partial vacuum to open the diverter. That increases the pressure ratio of the turbo which causes increased drive pressures and EGTs.
Click to expand...

That may be the case, but there are some doing it this way..
Who cares As long as it works? And it works well.
 
Tormentor said:
As I said before, that will cause excessive inlet restriction on the turbo as it has to pull a partial vacuum to open the diverter. That increases the pressure ratio of the turbo which causes increased drive pressures and EGTs.
Click to expand...

Really? Then tell how a turbo pulling from atmosphere isnt creating vacuum?

From what I read, a M112 from Eatons' website flows a max of 1400 m^3/hr. Translates roughly to 87lbs/hr if I did it right. That is top end though.

Lets say the turbo spools around 3k rpm, max of 4k rpm. I would put the super to have 14000rpm at red line, or nearly 3.5:1 pulley ratio. That would have it at 14000 rpms just barely out of the map.

That means at 3k, once the turbo is getting lit, you are running 10500rpms. That is making the super push around 67lbs/min at a 1.1 PR.

So since there is nothing showing below that, I would assume more air can be pushed by the super and there is a deficit of 20lbs. Why can't the supers bypass, which can also be operated by pressure, be enough since the super is in "free spin" state?
 
jeemu said:
And rest of a season they took Eaton away. I loan them my Nitrous system :)
Click to expand...

hi Jeemu,
why did they remove the eaton, what problems where they having?
can you find out what they thought of changing the pipework from last year? what worked best?

thanks.
 
Tormentor said:
As I said before, that will cause excessive inlet restriction on the turbo as it has to pull a partial vacuum to open the diverter. That increases the pressure ratio of the turbo which causes increased drive pressures and EGTs.
Click to expand...

hi,
volvo used one of these diverter flaps on their twin charged marine engine,


!BpKt99gBmk~$(KGrHqQOKiYEu,)H6cjKBLqQUchj5!~~_1.JPG


i think they used this setup,

kozukatwincharged.jpg


i'm not saying its best because i don't know.
 
hi,
i know a lot of v8 engines have the charger bolted straight to the intake but if i do that i'm blowing hot air straight into the inlet manifold, and when the turbo bypasses the charger, does the manifold pressure(being created by the turbo) not push against the charger which is still working hard also still pushing air in creating a lot of drag on the belt and heat.
I know this setup does work but what works best, spools best?
 
oldestof11 said:
Really? Then tell how a turbo pulling from atmosphere isnt creating vacuum?
Click to expand...
Let me repeat myself.
When the turbo spools, it pulls from the super. Once it starts pulling more than what the super can supply, it opens the diverter valve and pulls through there also.
Click to expand...
Anything pulling on anything is a load. ANY vacuum on the turbo inlet increases the pressure ratio the turbo has to work at to make the target gauge boost pressure. Having to pull open a diverter valve is a restriction.

From what I read, a M112 from Eatons' website flows a max of 1400 m^3/hr. Translates roughly to 87lbs/hr if I did it right.
Click to expand...
The M112 has a maximum manifold pressure of around 15psi before efficiency drops below 50%. Roots superchargers are very good at pumping volumes of air, but they are very poor at compressing it.

That means at 3k, once the turbo is getting lit, you are running 10500rpms. That is making the super push around 67lbs/min at a 1.1 PR.
Click to expand...
Did you mean 2.1 PR? At that PR the outlet temp of the supercharger would be over 312*f. If you make the turbo produce another 2.0 PR to make 30psi manifold pressure, the turbo outlet temperature will be over 550*f.

Why can't the supers bypass be enough since the super is in "free spin" state?
Click to expand...
See above.
Which is more efficient?
Pump B into A at 50% efficiency.
Pump A into B at 70% efficiency.

There is a 100*f pre-intercooler difference between the two. Cooler air into the intercooler means less workload on it and cooler manifold temperatures.

mantahead said:
hi,
i know a lot of v8 engines have the charger bolted straight to the intake but if i do that i'm blowing hot air straight into the inlet manifold
Click to expand...
Those systems usually have an air-water intercooler directly under the supercharger.
Lightninglowerintakewithintercooler.jpg


and when the turbo bypasses the charger, does the manifold pressure(being created by the turbo) not push against the charger which is still working hard also still pushing air in creating a lot of drag on the belt and heat.
Click to expand...
Yes. The supercharger will still be pumping air unless it is provided with a clutch to disengage its drive.
 
Yes. The supercharger will still be pumping air unless it is provided with a clutch to disengage its drive.[/QUOTE]

hi,
just trying to work out, if it was plumbed this way and you disengage the charger does the manifold pressure not back feed through the charger?

buy the way i just realised, you are Forcedinduction from superturbodiesel. Hi there.
 
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