We race trucks not flow benches!

Hamilton Cams

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Jun 28, 2007
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I have had every Tom, Dick and Harry in the last few months, call and tell me that their head outflows our casting.

In any case I thought it was timt to do a little splainin on the heads. Flow bench numbers are like Dynos, they mean absolutely nothing unless they are calibrated to each other, and even then there is room for discrepancy. Let's face it, these are tough times. In tough times, people will say what they need to get by. If my head flows 228 CFM out of the Box, their stock ported head will flow 250+. A few things to note on this scenario. 1. people lie. Don't believe everything you hear and half of what you see. 2. Flow benches are all over the place, flow numbers usually only are meaningfull when they are a comparison of two heads on the same bench with the same operator.
3. Just because a head flows 300cfm at .700" lift doesn't mean you will see any gain out of it. A head that flows well at high lift like that is probably a pretty fat port. Fat ports are lazy at lower lifts. With all of that port volume, the air velocity takes a second to respond. Add low compresion and it will be even lazier. What, you only have a cam that produces .400" lift at the valve? You are wasting your time worring what is happening at .800".

4. If you do have a legitimate head that flows big at .800", and you don't care that it is lazy under 3,000RPM and is a pig on the street, it is a nickels worth of material from being a boat anchor because of the thin port walls. Spent 3-5k on it and at any moment it could be worth zilch, zero, nada, a big goose egg.

Long story short, a flow number on one of our heads will never compete against a fluffed flow number from a porting guy down the road. We put a lot or time and work into the head we sell. You will see a higher velocity in our head than a given head that has been ported. That will mean better flow and a wider power range. If you do decide to take it to the limit, you will not have to worry about port wall thickness as much as with a stocker.

Desired rpm range dictates duration, duration dictates maximum lift possible, maximum lift and rpm range together dictate a lot about the port and valve angle. Keep this in mind when building an engine. You are not racing flow benches, you are racing trucks. And keep in mind it takes a given CFM through the engine to make a given power. If you have a Hx35 and you think because you have our head you will have 1,000 Hp, you will be sorely dissapointed. Our head is not perfect for every application under the sun, but in most instances and with the correct combination of parts, it will have a definite advantage over most combinations with OE heads.




Use your head not your wallet.

Zach
 
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Use your head not your wallet.

Zach

But in order to use your head I have to use my wallet. :hehe:

I love flowbench racing. Some of the best flowbench racers in the world are superfarm tractor pullers. MY OEM 400 SERIES IH HEAD FLOWS 500 CFM WITH STOCK VALVES! :hehe::bang
 
I hear ya Zach, same goes with injector nozzle ratings, all over the place, different test benches, different test materials, different pressures, blab blab blab they all think their stuff is a secret. You go the extra mile to be honest, and it will pay off.
 
There are usually measurements of velocity given in serious discussions regarding head flow as it relates to power produced. While I don't know the FPS values which are desirable for the rpm ranges we like to operate in I feel when that becomes public information more valuable public discussion can occur. Until then it is speculation and trusting your head porter. There is so much to cylinder heads it is unreal. Probably a bit simpler in the diesel world due to the dry flow port but regardless i'm sure these motors are bound by many of the same things that max effort gas applications are bound by.
 
9724vf350, Touche. Now that I have a head for sale, I might need to change that thought.

Mike, Thank you sir. It seems like head wars are the new cam debates.


Nick, you are right. One thing that is a constant that I have found, is that any data I give out, whether it is with heads, cams, springs, or pushrods gets lost in a sea of mis-information. In most cases, the average Joe doesn't know the dfference between what is real and what is false.

This is what I find most troubling with the diesel Industry. Due to large breasts in marketing, fancy logos, lies, bogus tests and ignorance, many people spend a lot of money on products that are sub-par. The only way to safe guard youself from pissing off money is to be more informed.

This is where I think I should have spent less time working on the products and more time, finding out what makes people make decisions. Although we are talking about heads and cams, we are dancing all around the real subject. What factors contribute to a person spending more money on an inferior product than they would have with a technically superior product at a lower price point?

That being said, let me ask you this. Why did you decide against a Hamilton Cam, Spring or pushrod? Or why did you decide to buy a ported stock head instead of one of ours. That is really what I want to know.

Don't be scurred. If you have ever wanted to let me have it, now is your chance. Any reason is acceptable. From "Zach, you are a prick" to "You did not have girls in bikinis" to "The other company has girls in bikinis with flat bill hats on" I even want to know if you percieve me to be an idiot. They are all good answers. One of the most important things that most people don't want to know is what others think of them. I am the schmuck just dumb enough to ask........

Thanks,

Zach
 
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9724vf350, Touche. Now that I have a head for sale, I might need to change that thought.

Mike, Thank you sir. It seems like head wars are the new cam debates.


Nick, you are right. One thing that is a constant that I have found, is that any data I give out, whether it is with heads, cams, springs, or pushrods gets lost in a sea of mis-information. In most cases, the average Joe doesn't know the dfference between what is real and what is false.

This is what I find most troubling with the diesel Industry. Due to large breasts in marketing, fancy logos, lies, bogus tests and ignorance, many people spend a lot of money on products that are sub-par. The only way to safe guard youself from pissing off money is to be more informed.

This is where I think I should have spent less time working on the products and more time, finding out what makes people make decisions. Although we are talking about heads and cams, we are dancing all around the real subject. What factors contribute to a person spending more money on an inferior product than they would have with a technically superior product at a lower price point?

That being said, let me ask you this. Why did you decide against a Hamilton Cam, Spring or pushrod? Or why did you decide to buy a ported stock head instead of one of ours. That is really what I want to know.

Don't be scurred. If you have ever wanted to let me have it, now is your chance. Any reason is acceptable. From "Zach, you are a prick" to "You did not have girls in Bikinis" To "The other company has birls in Bikinis with flat bill hats on" I even want to know if you percieve me to be an idiot. They are all good answers. One of the most important things that most people don't want to know is what others think of them. I am the schmuck just dumb enough to ask........

Thanks,

Zach


Why I don't have a Hamilton head?
They won't be legal in the classes I compete in. Even if they are installed on a truck because a rule doesn't say they are allowed, as soon as someone finds out, a rule will be made. Then I would be stuck with a head that I couldn't use.

Another reason so much "stuff" goes on in the diesel industry, is the folks blowing smoke on the street(kids usually) are the ones who are spending the lions share of money in the industry. They don't know any better, they want smoke, and an 8000lb truck that will smoke the tires! A double edged sword, when they leave, so does the bulk of the money...
 
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I bought a ported head because you didn't offer one for a 07.5, 6.7CR application! Shame on you!!!bif:kick:LOL

On a serious note, that was well said.
 
Why I don't have a Hamilton head?
They won't be legal in the classes I compete in. Even if they are installed on a truck because a rule doesn't say they are allowed, as soon as someone finds out, a rule will be made. Then I would be stuck with a head that I couldn't use.

Another reason so much "stuff" goes on in the diesel industry, is the folks blowing smoke on the street(kids usually) are the ones who are spending the lions share of money in the industry. They don't know any better, they want smoke, and an 8000lb truck that will smoke the tires! A double edged sword, when they leave, so does the bulk of the money...

Fair enough. I appreciate the input, but I am looking for information, other than rules, on why someone would buy a product other than mine. Like "I bought a F-1 cam because the lobes are more narrow which helps "slide the tappets" in Don's words and won't wear out like your crappy wide lobed cams", or "Don is not a prick, so I bought his cam".

I also deal with old and young alike, but your point is valid in respect to age in many instances.

I get tired of seeing people spend 500-700 too much for a turbo that is technically inferior because it has a fancy name and is a bit more Chromosexual. They could have spent 700 dollars less and had better spool and more overall power in 99% of driving situations. If raw efficient power is what people are after, their spending doesn't back that thought up. I do what I do because I am a habitual adrenaline junkie. I don't jump off bridges, but I love being pushed back in the seat, I love feeling the truck get pushed down a bit over 120mph. That dictates my spending....getting my fix. It is apparent, based on others spending habits, that the appearance of being a "speed junkie" is the basis of their spending. If a product is perceived by their peers to be more "rad" Like NOS then that is what they will buy regardless of the reality.

Let's face it, Fast and Furious pretty much proves my theory. I guess what I am saying, is that the premise that CompD serves as a platform for others to find out how to make HP best and research products, is second to CompD serves as a platform for guys to get sold a bill of goods whether that be a technically inferior turbo that is shiny or a technically inferior cam that has a fancy name. The funny thing, like Ron Allen always says is that they defend their decision to the death, even though they have only tried one cam ever. They think they are defending their honor, but they are proving their ignorane. It is the same as saying, I am an ignorant idiot that does not understand basic logic. I also, can not comprehend that because I have tried one cam that I am not a cam expert. Are we so proud in being men that we can't admit " I wasted money on a crappy cam because it had a fancy name" Or "but they have models with big tatas"?




Thoughts?

Acorn, I am working on getting you fixed up.
 
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While I haven't given up on trying one of your heads, the sticky point is injectors. I've never owned a 12V and have no source that I trust for injectors for a 12v head spraying into a centered bowl. When i ask specifically for injectors to use in that application, the response has been negative.
 
Zack, I used to get into in depth discussions on various gm ls1 boards some fairly advanced. The most interesting board to me was speedtalk but that board was full of extremely professional people unlike 99% of boards out there for this (making mad horsepower with whatever) hobby. What I found is that you learn about 10% for every 100% of b.s. I run a stock head and cam because I don't feel there is enough gain to be worth the money/effort in my non competition toy. So much of these things are hard to actually prove one way or the other due to the complex nature of what goes on in a motor to make power all you can do is your best to reason. The general public does not always have the desire to obtain the indepth information you and some others offer as evidenced by all the what is the best turbo threads. I would volunteer this is more of a problem with the consumer than the producer. Cary on, what you do is good for the industry in my opinion and as you have already found out there are many bumps to be hit on the road to success. Good luck!
 
While I haven't given up on trying one of your heads, the sticky point is injectors. I've never owned a 12V and have no source that I trust for injectors for a 12v head spraying into a centered bowl. When i ask specifically for injectors to use in that application, the response has been negative.


Ron, You have other fish to fry. Wait until I come out with my 6.7l Marine 12v bowl pistons before you go that route.

Nick that is fair observation. I guess what I am looking for is why did you buy X or Y?

Have you seen my dyno graphs comparing a stock cam to our 188-220? My question is if that is not compelling enough, what would it take to convince you it was worth it? I say this because if you can look at cam threads in the last two years the tone has changed. In the past it was I think I can feel a difference and now it is Wow. Is our dyno data perceived as false or not relative to your build? Please be honest. I want to know why you would see our Dyno data and consider it not relative or not enough gain to make it worth your while.
Zach
 
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Once some guys get these heads out on the road and on the dyno then down a track, things will change. Maybe one day soon someone will do a back to back dyno test on the new head right out of the box against a bone stock head, no other changes.

Then a P&P head and so on...

Until then there will be some non believers.

As for me not jumping on a head when they came out....I fit into the largest base of consumers, I don't have a 12v and I don't have the money. Now a 24v head to help with my LSR goals...I'll beg borrow or steal some money!!!!
 
Nick that is fair observation. I guess what I am looking for is why did you buy X or Y?

Have you seen my dyno graphs comparing a stock cam to our 188-220? My question is if that is not compelling enough, what would it take to convince you it was worth it? I say this because if you can look at cam threads in the last two years the tone has changed. In the past it was I think I can feel a difference and now it is Wow. Is our dyno data perceived as false or not relative to your build? Please be honest. I want to know why you would see our Dyno data and consider it not relative or not enough gain to make it worth your while.
Zach

For me alot of the reason a stock cam remains in my motor is because the simple fact in looking at the process to change the cam for what is gained I am just not interested. Cummins clearly never intended the cams to be serviced in these motors as evidenced by the ridiculous in comparison to a small block cam change process. For those who are looking to gain every absolutely last bit of power I can see it but for me who races in no class or is in competition with only myself it is just as easy for me to gain the spool associated with an external device like the spool flange I run or bolt on a larger turbo/run compounds.

I do run valve springs and pushrods but again having some understanding of valvetrain it was just as easy to find something from others who would fit the bill for me (not 60lb springs). I know what beehive springs etc. cost when in the GM world and was always astounded by the prices charged for them when sold by diesel companies. That said the set I run won't allow for the lift yours will but given i'm on a stock cam that is not of concern to me.

p.s. I want to make sure people understand I am not calling people goofy for swapping cams I'm just stating that the complexity and effort it requires for what is gained is not something I find myself very interested in. Also, I am not 100% sold on their durability yet.
 
p.s. I want to make sure people understand I am not calling people goofy for swapping cams I'm just stating that the complexity and effort it requires for what is gained is not something I find myself very interested in. Also, I am not 100% sold on their durability yet.

That is the meat and taters of what I am looking for. Thank you. I really do appreciate you information. What, about my cams specifically, does not sell you on durability? This is something I would like to understand more about.


Shughes, thank you for the information. A CR head will come one day. The issue with them currently is that a ported 12v head is far from one of our heads. I will have to work much harder to make such a difference with the CR heads. People are getting a lot of air out of ported heads with bigger valves. Right now I am just trying to weigh if people are willing to ante up and buy a head that is radically different for the CR. If it is not radically different, it wil not show that much of a gain over the current CR head with a good port job.
 
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zach I fall in the same boat as everyone else and more than likely 75-80% of the people on this board, we run 24v. the 12v guys are mostly sled pullers who can't run the heads due to rules. with the fact that alot of guys are p-pumping their 24v now they have the fuel just not the air. I would rather purchase a new cast head that flows the same as a stage 3 port and has the ability to be ported farther if need be.
 
I've never owned a 12V and have no source that I trust for injectors for a 12v head spraying into a centered bowl. When i ask specifically for injectors to use in that application, the response has been negative.

As the width of the bowl increases the offset reduces, it is common to see stock pistons with a 4.3-6mm offset. Now looking at the larger bowl pistons this number drops to 2.5-3.8mm, if the bowl was wider yet this number would decrease enough that the offset would play far less of a role.
 
A poster in another thread summed it up very well. The idea of having to run additives in the oil to keep cams alive is kind of scary to me.
 
The ideal situation might be you partnering with the diesel engine manufacturers, say with cummins, your products would help them lead: hp and torque number, fuel mileage,reliabilty, less warranty claims ie dropping valve seats,etc, producing a more effiecient powerfull engine with less complex pollution equipment, if they were added at the source the economy of scale would make sense
 
I went with an F1 cam because at the time I got into Cummins stuff, that's all I heard of. F1 was on top and had good reviews. I went with F1 cam, springs, and nozzles. If I was to do my conversion over again, Hamilton goodies would be installed. His service seems top notch and the performance is there based on what I've read. Zack also has a drive for diesel performance and brings new products to the table. Most vendors make little odds/ends, not a new 12v head! If that doesn't show you his passion for the Cummins, I don't know what will. I could only imagine the $$ spent on R&D and everything to make it happen. Knowing what I know now, I would be running Hamilton. Hopefully in the future I'll be needing parts for another project.
 
The ideal situation might be you partnering with the diesel engine manufacturers, say with cummins, your products would help them lead: hp and torque number, fuel mileage,reliabilty, less warranty claims ie dropping valve seats,etc, producing a more effiecient powerfull engine with less complex pollution equipment, if they were added at the source the economy of scale would make sense


After the diesel engine manufacturers' bean counters were done with the head, it would end up with probably the same issues that the OEM's have. Not taking away from Zach, but so many of the issues the OEMS' end up with are cost driven.
 
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