Why does Propane make a engine go boom? Timing

It's mostly in the timing setup and how well the propane is metered in. It has to be just the right amount of pane to help not too little not too much(it should lower egt a little). Amounts depend on other factors as well...turbos injectors, injection presure, injecton events, engine load. I have seen anywhere from no gains to 50+% reduction in fuel useage on farm equipment being worked. Like on a tractor tilling soil you can now run 1-2 gears higher and drop rpm. Ive seen a tractor buring 25-27 gallons per hour drop to about 16 on pane and 13 with pane and a ts box. Plus add in propane useage of about 3.25 gallons per hour.
You will see gains its all a matter of how much you want to adjust everything-but it will work.
 
wow... this is exactly the type info I need.

bully dog's setup is easily adjustable for flow. but once flow is setup, it stays at set rate for entire duration.

basically instructions calls to bypass the boost switch so propane is metered at idle instead at 7lbs. then increase flow until engine starts to run rough, then close down mixture screw 1/2 turn.

bully dog's only safety is boost switch on... no cut off for high temp or high boost. although it'd be easy enough to find normally closed switches to monitor those events.

since my only reason for propane is mileage, HP increase if any will not be the deciding factor.

one pita coming up ...changing timing on 12v while not difficult is time consuming. do most folks do better with stock timing or slightly advanced at 16 degrees like mine?

It's mostly in the timing setup and how well the propane is metered in. It has to be just the right amount of pane to help not too little not too much(it should lower egt a little). Amounts depend on other factors as well...turbos injectors, injection presure, injecton events, engine load. I have seen anywhere from no gains to 50+% reduction in fuel useage on farm equipment being worked. Like on a tractor tilling soil you can now run 1-2 gears higher and drop rpm. Ive seen a tractor buring 25-27 gallons per hour drop to about 16 on pane and 13 with pane and a ts box. Plus add in propane useage of about 3.25 gallons per hour.
You will see gains its all a matter of how much you want to adjust everything-but it will work.
 
So your saying msd's kit is not adjustable throughout boost range? If so then you will probably not see any milage gains IMO. The kit i use is called The Diesel Magnum and puts in more pane as boost raises that way you are getting a pretty even 20% pane 80% diesel. They are actually working on a new system to work with newer big rigs that will tie into pcm and inject propane according to fuel trims.
Anyways i would find something that is adjustable up the boost range since your using ten times as much diesel under load as compared to at idle. My brother is a dealer and can get goods deals on the kit too. But they still cost more than msd/bully dog/TS... But it is nice being able to set so many perameters.
 
I think 16 degrees timing plus propane should work decent when running petro diesel. Some guys are running 20-25 degrees with just diesel. I burn biodiesel which basically advances timing and i am set at 16 degrees, but am seing no gains with pane and i think its too much timing. I am going to set mine back to around 13 degrees one of these days to see if it helps.
 
Let me try my hand at throwing some key concepts out here...


First and foremost.... a "Diesel" engine is Compression Ignition by Definition. The entire premise that compression ignition engines are based on is that fuel will NOT be present in the cylinder until a set point when it is injected and ideally, immediately auto-ignites and burns quickly and uniformly.

Now you go and toss a FUEL source back into the equation and you're back to spark ignition basics.... NOT diesel anymore. Only problem is, you're still running 17+ compression and 30+lbs of boost. Now would anyone expect a gasser to run 17.5:1 compression at 30lbs of boost? Would anyone build an engine like that? I certainly hope not. Can you say pre-ignition?

Everyone likes to compare the auto-ignition points for diesel and propane, as if that means something. I guess they like to forget the fact that the diesel IS NOT IN THE CYLINDER on the compression stroke. It doesn't matter if the in-cylinder temperatures were 20,000,000 degrees..... the sh*t's sitting in the injector, NOT in the cylinder..... where the propane IS. The diesel only hits the scene AFTER the set point relative to crank is reached, and the pump/injector place it there. Hence TIMING. You CANNOT time propane, anymore than a gasser can time 93 octane not to pop at 60lbs of boost on an 8.5:1 engine....

You have a compression-ignition engine..... treat it that way.


Something else....

If the propane isn't auto-igniting before the diesel..... and it has a higher auto-ignition point..... how is it that it speeds the burn again???? So somehow a "sluggish" fuel is going to light off after the diesel, and then somehow speed up the burn of the fuel with the lower auto-ignition point?

That's a mystery (in his best Tommy Boy voice)

Isn't it far more likely that the propane has already auto-ignited, and when the diesel fuel is injected, instead of having a long ignition-delay as flame front propagation begins, it instead gets sprayed into a pre-existing flame? Hence the rapid burn, advanced effective timing (cylinder pressure relative to crank position) and lower EGT? Doesn't that make a LOT more sense?

Hmmmm

How do we lower egt all else constant? Advance timing. Have you ever tried leaving the propane at home, and just bumping the timing 3 degrees and re-checking EGT? How about milage?


Propane fumigation through the intake track has no place on a compression ignition engine. Milage, towing, whatever. It's just lesser degrees of conceptually being wrong.

And yes, I have PERSONALLY popped an engine running propane. Supposed to be good for 100hp they said. I dyno tuned it for 80 and then backed it back down a bit from there because it felt overtimed (pre-ignition.....oh wait, that doesn't happen right....)

One year later..... boom. Whoops.


Propane's a joke.
 
They are running pane on Case 7020 combines with a 40' grain table. They pick up about 20% ground speed and still use less diesel fuel than before. With everything calculated in they save about 30% on fuel per acre.


better off using the TS Performance Agri-power series and never have to worry about refueling the propane. probably less money up front as well.
 
that is correct... bully dog's only adjustment is off idle... there's two electrical switch connected in series with gas selenoid. one switch for main power, second is a pressure switch that's normally closed until 7 lb boost is achieved.

bully dog claims at least 20% increase in fuel efficiency.
it's amazing what they charge for what little hardware is provided.

I'd like to find out how Diesel Magnum control all the parameters...
their website is lacking on details... just claims... no details on how it works.

So your saying msd's kit is not adjustable throughout boost range? If so then you will probably not see any milage gains IMO. The kit i use is called The Diesel Magnum and puts in more pane as boost raises that way you are getting a pretty even 20% pane 80% diesel. They are actually working on a new system to work with newer big rigs that will tie into pcm and inject propane according to fuel trims.
Anyways i would find something that is adjustable up the boost range since your using ten times as much diesel under load as compared to at idle. My brother is a dealer and can get goods deals on the kit too. But they still cost more than msd/bully dog/TS... But it is nice being able to set so many perameters.
 
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Lots of claims, no details=
snake-oil.jpg
 
if propane wasn't such a pita to mount.... I'd just install it, just to see for myself what gains if any shows up. especially since I've already purchased the system.

my propane tank is 13in diameter x 48in, only spot big enough is where spare tire resides. I may stick tank temporarily in the bed.
 
Let me try my hand at throwing some key concepts out here...


First and foremost.... a "Diesel" engine is Compression Ignition by Definition. The entire premise that compression ignition engines are based on is that fuel will NOT be present in the cylinder until a set point when it is injected and ideally, immediately auto-ignites and burns quickly and uniformly.

Now you go and toss a FUEL source back into the equation and you're back to spark ignition basics.... NOT diesel anymore. Only problem is, you're still running 17+ compression and 30+lbs of boost. Now would anyone expect a gasser to run 17.5:1 compression at 30lbs of boost? Would anyone build an engine like that? I certainly hope not. Can you say pre-ignition?

Everyone likes to compare the auto-ignition points for diesel and propane, as if that means something. I guess they like to forget the fact that the diesel IS NOT IN THE CYLINDER on the compression stroke. It doesn't matter if the in-cylinder temperatures were 20,000,000 degrees..... the sh*t's sitting in the injector, NOT in the cylinder..... where the propane IS. The diesel only hits the scene AFTER the set point relative to crank is reached, and the pump/injector place it there. Hence TIMING. You CANNOT time propane, anymore than a gasser can time 93 octane not to pop at 60lbs of boost on an 8.5:1 engine....

You have a compression-ignition engine..... treat it that way.


Something else....

If the propane isn't auto-igniting before the diesel..... and it has a higher auto-ignition point..... how is it that it speeds the burn again???? So somehow a "sluggish" fuel is going to light off after the diesel, and then somehow speed up the burn of the fuel with the lower auto-ignition point?

That's a mystery (in his best Tommy Boy voice)

Isn't it far more likely that the propane has already auto-ignited, and when the diesel fuel is injected, instead of having a long ignition-delay as flame front propagation begins, it instead gets sprayed into a pre-existing flame? Hence the rapid burn, advanced effective timing (cylinder pressure relative to crank position) and lower EGT? Doesn't that make a LOT more sense?

Hmmmm

How do we lower egt all else constant? Advance timing. Have you ever tried leaving the propane at home, and just bumping the timing 3 degrees and re-checking EGT? How about milage?


Propane fumigation through the intake track has no place on a compression ignition engine. Milage, towing, whatever. It's just lesser degrees of conceptually being wrong.

And yes, I have PERSONALLY popped an engine running propane. Supposed to be good for 100hp they said. I dyno tuned it for 80 and then backed it back down a bit from there because it felt overtimed (pre-ignition.....oh wait, that doesn't happen right....)

One year later..... boom. Whoops.


Propane's a joke.





Not saying your wrong, not saying your right. I'm trying to view it from every direction. I am wondering what you setup was when your motor let go? I have only personally seem one motor toasted from propane and that was with a TS kit and "after" the fact they realized it was using about 2 to 1 propane instead of 4 to 1. Most motors run great with it...not sure about long term, but it "seems" fine but no real data.

Also, it seems to be the stock motors that gain the most mileage. I have been wondering ever since i bought the kit two years ago if it really helps THAT much over advancing the timing.

About the pre ignition thing i can see how you are saying the pane is already burning, and that may be the case but is it that big of a deal if it starts to burn at 17 degrees and timing is set at 16? Even at 25 degrees is it that big of a deal? Lots of guys run that timing. I think the problem may be when you run so much that is starting to burn at 40 or even 50 degrees BTDC. It just seems like everyone i have heard of has run WAY too much when they blow there motor.

If your kit was not adjustable up the boost range then you were causing serious damage under low load conditions when there is too much propane compared to air. You have to have enough air to delay detonation to where the piston is high enough to be safe. Think of diethyl either (starting fluid) auto ignition point of 320 Fahrenheit, propane is minimum 800. Maybe it’s a matter of time with the propane before it blows, but I still seem to think that if injected in the proper manor it will not pre ignite too soon and longevity will remain.

I can see a problem in high performance applications it may cause problems because of so much boost and latent heat. That’s why my kit is off at 30psi and up. But until I can get my timing set to where I am seeing any mileage gain I am not even running it.

I guess to sum it up I’m not really sure if I am a fan or not…I guess it sounds good in theory. A good engine only uses 35% of its BTU-there must be some way to harness another 20%.
 
Not saying your wrong, not saying your right. I'm trying to view it from every direction. I am wondering what you setup was when your motor let go? I have only personally seem one motor toasted from propane and that was with a TS kit and "after" the fact they realized it was using about 2 to 1 propane instead of 4 to 1. Most motors run great with it...not sure about long term, but it "seems" fine but no real data.

Also, it seems to be the stock motors that gain the most mileage. I have been wondering ever since i bought the kit two years ago if it really helps THAT much over advancing the timing.

About the pre ignition thing i can see how you are saying the pane is already burning, and that may be the case but is it that big of a deal if it starts to burn at 17 degrees and timing is set at 16? Even at 25 degrees is it that big of a deal? Lots of guys run that timing. I think the problem may be when you run so much that is starting to burn at 40 or even 50 degrees BTDC. It just seems like everyone i have heard of has run WAY too much when they blow there motor.

If your kit was not adjustable up the boost range then you were causing serious damage under low load conditions when there is too much propane compared to air. You have to have enough air to delay detonation to where the piston is high enough to be safe. Think of diethyl either (starting fluid) auto ignition point of 320 Fahrenheit, propane is minimum 800. Maybe it’s a matter of time with the propane before it blows, but I still seem to think that if injected in the proper manor it will not pre ignite too soon and longevity will remain.

I can see a problem in high performance applications it may cause problems because of so much boost and latent heat. That’s why my kit is off at 30psi and up. But until I can get my timing set to where I am seeing any mileage gain I am not even running it.

I guess to sum it up I’m not really sure if I am a fan or not…I guess it sounds good in theory. A good engine only uses 35% of its BTU-there must be some way to harness another 20%.



Actually, the theory is the place where propane gets a reality check. You don't put a fuel source into the intake track on a compression ignition engine in theory. You should never be worried about the auto-ignition point of a fuel when running a diesel. Why you would purposefully enter the world of the gasser, worrying about pre-ignition of a fuel due to hot spots, too much boost, too much ___ and whatever else, when you have a DIRECT INJECTED engine that shouldn't encounter any of that is completely unexplainable by me.

And my propane setup was a PS2000. Fully adjustable boost referenced start point, and fully adjustable onset curve. I believe mine came on at 7psi IIRC, although it's been years now. Aside from that, I had it adjusted so that it produced right at 80rwhp when the kit was advertised safe to 100 additional hp. I then further reduced the injection quantity from there because it didn't feel quite right to me at full song.

It was not setup incorrectly. It was doing exactly what propane does.

Lastly, it's not an issue of injecting a small enough quantity to avoid making the propane act a certain way. The propane is always doing it's thing, making harsh CP rises. It's just a matter of injecting a small enough quantity so that the added stress from the propane doesn't exceed the mechanical limits of the engine.

You ever wonder why you can't inject propane until the truck is making an additional 300, to 400hp? Yet you can inject additional diesel fuel and do just that, no problem?

It's because the propane can't be TIMED. The only way propane gets used, is to sneak around trying to run a small enough quantity that this untimed detonation results in less engine stress than what will break the engine. If you ever started getting enough out of the propane to make it worthwhile, boom.

It's pathetic IMO. Either run a quantity so small that it's basically pointless compared to a good state of tune on #2 only, or run enough to make it matter and pop the engine hundreds of hp shy of what you could have done on #2.

It's conceptually retarded. You don't put fuel into the intake on a diesel. Might as well run a "wet" nitrous setup on a diesel.....

:doh:
 
What kind of truck were you injecting propane into, what other mods were done? If you were already pushing high boost/egt's/compression with low RPM then yeah it could have detonated to early. At high enough rpm it is difficult to get too much timing. Propane can obviously be used to work it does in gassers-my brother has two carbureted gas-propane engines. It is 105-110 octane you can use 12 points of compression. I think it would really depend on what your compression ratio is. a 6.9 ford with 22 to 1 compared to a low compression race engine with 15 or less. At low enough compression you can run straight propane because ignition will be so close to TDC the detonation wouldn’t matter. It’s all in the tuning-it can be done.
 
What kind of truck were you injecting propane into, what other mods were done? If you were already pushing high boost/egt's/compression with low RPM then yeah it could have detonated to early. At high enough rpm it is difficult to get too much timing. Propane can obviously be used to work it does in gassers-my brother has two carbureted gas-propane engines. It is 105-110 octane you can use 12 points of compression. I think it would really depend on what your compression ratio is. a 6.9 ford with 22 to 1 compared to a low compression race engine with 15 or less. At low enough compression you can run straight propane because ignition will be so close to TDC the detonation wouldn’t matter. It’s all in the tuning-it can be done.


Thank you for proving my point.

You just used a gasser (spark ignition) as the basis for your conception. Problem is, compression ratio DOESN'T MATTER in terms of any of this on a diesel because the fuel is NOT supposed to BE in the cylinder on the compression stroke. You could run 400:1 compression if you wanted. Doesn't matter, because you get to time the injection event, aka direct injection.

You cannot time a fuel that is allowed into the cylinder through the intake track. Hence the fact that gassers must use low compression in conjunction with a spark to time the combustion process. We don't. We simply inject the fuel when we want it to burn. Something you CANNOT do with propane, unless you direct inject it just like the diesel.

You can't time it, therefore it has no place in the engine. Most DI light diesels run around 17:1 compression and right at 20ish lbs of boost stock. Would your brother run his gasser at 17:1 compression and 20lbs of boost with the propane just sitting on that piston as the cylinder approached TDC?

Doubtful. So what makes you think you should?



And to answer your question, I ran it on a forged rod 7.3 powerstroke. 17.5:1 compression and about 28lbs of boost max. Stock injectors, stock turbocharger. The truck made 268rwhp as equipped without propane. And 340ish with it. A real animal, lol.
 
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There’s a big difference between running propane on gas and diesel-a gas engine must rely on propane to fuel the entire burn so they are putting 5 times as much propane in. I agree I would not put that much in a diesel, but when you limit the amount low enough detonation of the propane would not even happen until at least 20 degrees BTDC when the diesel is being injected anyways.
Im not sure how you blew your powerstroke up at those power levels. Were you always running in an advanced timing setup? I know I personally logged 15,000 miles on a 7.3 with propane and ts chip. This kit has been on some over the road trucks for five years-why have they not blown yet? Could it be possible the kit you are using was not adjusted properly or malfunctioned? I really would like to know what the propane did to your egts-if they were raising then you were injecting too much. I am saying just inject enough to gain mileage not power…my powerstroke had maybe a 30-40 increase in power, not 80-100.

Did you ever keep track of propane usage compared to diesel? I just would like to know the reason your truck blew, so that nobody else has to make the same mistake.
 
There’s a big difference between running propane on gas and diesel-a gas engine must rely on propane to fuel the entire burn so they are putting 5 times as much propane in. I agree I would not put that much in a diesel, but when you limit the amount low enough detonation of the propane would not even happen until at least 20 degrees BTDC when the diesel is being injected anyways.
Im not sure how you blew your powerstroke up at those power levels. Were you always running in an advanced timing setup? I know I personally logged 15,000 miles on a 7.3 with propane and ts chip. This kit has been on some over the road trucks for five years-why have they not blown yet? Could it be possible the kit you are using was not adjusted properly or malfunctioned? I really would like to know what the propane did to your egts-if they were raising then you were injecting too much. I am saying just inject enough to gain mileage not power…my powerstroke had maybe a 30-40 increase in power, not 80-100.

Did you ever keep track of propane usage compared to diesel? I just would like to know the reason your truck blew, so that nobody else has to make the same mistake.


You keep the "dosage" (lets be honest.... it's a DRUG) low not so that it won't pre-ignite, but so that when it does, the effect, and subsequent engine stress increase won't exceed the mechanical limitations of the bottom end.

What does propane quantity have to do with the autoignition point? Are you going to argue that 100lbs of propane will autoignite at ___ degrees, but that 10lbs will not autoignite until ___ higher temperature???

Obviously the propane will either pop, or it won't as the piston is approaching TDC. The amount only effects the subsequent degree to which the cylinder pressure is affected, not whether or not it's being affected.



It's like hitting your fingers with a hammer...

You're arguing that as long as you don't swing the hammer very hard, you aren't going to break your fingers because the hammer isn't harming them, and that at some arbitrary point harm just miraculously starts coming to your fingers as you swing harder and harder and at this same point blood and broken bones just spring up seemingly from out of nowhere.

My argument is that you're adding stress the whole time. It hurts your fingers the entire time, even though they might not be pouring blood (blowing coolant) or have bones breaking and shooting through the skin (rodding the block). The lesser of the evil doesn't remove the harm, it just LESSENS it to a degree where symptoms aren't going to show. The added stress is STILL there, you're still slamming your fingers with a freakin hammer.

I'm trying to tell you that it makes a hell of a lot more sense to put the G'damn hammer down, and stop slamming it into your own fingers than to just make sure you keep the swings down to a level where there's no blood or broken bones...



As to my truck, I popped the hell out of a head gasket after almost exactly a year of driving with the exact same setup that produced 268hp on fuel and 340ish on propane that I then backed down a bit even from there. It blew because the cylinder pressure amount, and onset was OBVIOUSLY too much for the engine to withstand.

Are you completely unaware of engines bending connecting rods, breaking main registers out of the block, blowing headgaskets so on and so forth while making pathetic power outputs through the use of propane?

An engine making an additional 100hp with propane is enduring similar, if not worse stress than one enduring an additional 400+hp on fuel.

Why beat the piss out of an engine for piss-poor gains when fuel only could have produced over twice the results without the stress?

You asked why does propane make an engine go boom..... and you apparently don't like the answer.

Why don't the OTR tractors pop??? Are you kidding? Ever seen the connecting rods and general size of anything on an OTR engine??? Yet they are usually being run at what? 350... 450....550 ish hp? These same engines will do 1000+ easy without failures, and you can't figure out why they don't let go from an 80 shot of propane....

Must be because the propane isn't adding much stress. Well, either that, or the fact that the engine is built like a brick sh*t house....
 
That’s the point. Diesels are overbuilt so they can handle some extra stress without compromising durability. That is why i advise to only run under lower power output conditions i don't have the balls to inject propane into my engine already making 600+ HP. But if my engine will hold up to 600 HP on fuel then why can't it handle 100 hp plus maybe 10 extra on pane while im cruising down the highway? Soon as boost hits 30lbs and i make maybe 300 hp im done the pane stops flowing. Who cares if my engine needs rebuilt at 450,000 miles instead of 500,000. If I was saving 30% on my fuel bill. 450,000 miles / 16mpg=28,000 gallons of fuel. If I could save 20% at 3.00 per gallon I now have an extra $16,800.

WOW! You popped a head gasket on a diesel truck with a chip on it! You’re the first to ever do that. I know 7.3 had few head gasket problems, but they were not immune to it. How many miles on your truck? Ever wonder if it would have let go anyways? I see this type of problem ALL the time with biodiesel, mechanics instantly blame the biodiesel for any engine problems when most of the time after they are done changing unnecessary parts they find out a ICP sensor or TPS is what was at fault. Biodiesel and propane have a very bad reputation. When something has a bad reputation it’s first to get blamed. Take kids for example if a kid has a bad reputation he is the first to get blamed when something happens. Is that really fair when there is no proof? What proof do you have that pane popped the gasket?

Also, if I am not hitting my fingers hard enough to hurt then why stop? If I inject a certain amount of propane into the motor and it doesn’t “hurt” then why stop? It can’t be worse than running timing at 30 degrees.

I started this tread mainly to see what high HP applications failed because frankly the only stocks ones that blow are one being operated by idiots.

I really wish I could get a hold of a dyno and an engine to blow up just to do some tests.

You never answered me do you know the ratio of pane to diesel you burned or how the pane affected your egts?
 
Ok I finally decided to do it: I calculated the amount of propane you would need to inject before it could possibly preignite at a LEL of 2%. If anyone finds a problem with these calculations please correct them.

Let’s say im driving 72 mph at 2000rpm in my truck with a 5.9L engine at 7lbs boost or 1.5 ATM. Calculations are based on driving for one hour.


2000RPM/4=500 intake strokes per minute

500 X 60 minutes= 30,000 intake stroke per hour

30,000 X 5.9 liter engine= 177,000 liters/air

177,000 liters/air X 1.5 ATM=265,500 liters/air/hour

265,500 X 1.286 grams/liter air at atmospheric pressure= 341,433 grams/air/hour

341,433/1,000= 341 kg air/hour

341 kg/air X .02 LEL for propane= 6.83 kg propane

6.83 X 2.2 pounds/gallon= 15.03 pounds propane

15.03/4.2 propane/pounds/gallon= 3.58 gallons propane

So you could inject 3.58 gallons propane for every hour at 2000 RPM at 1.5ATM in a 5.9 liter engine WITHOUT preigniting on its own.

This seems very high to me because this would mean burning 3.58 gallons of propane in 72 miles (20mpg) which would burn 3.6 gallons of diesel fuel meaning it would be at a 1 to 1 ratio. So if my calculations are correct we don’t have to worry about preignition because the pane won’t be burning until the diesel starts the fire. I think what should concern us is the rate of burn time is increased so fast with the propane that peak cylinder pressures are getting high too soon before TDC and pushing the piston back down before it is up. So if this is in fact the case problem would be solved by retarding the timing. Correct me if im wrong on anything here.
 
this thread has cast enough doubt for me to hold off installing propane on my super nice low mileage 12v.

popping a head gasket on problematic engines running propane proves very little. has anyone broken internal engine parts running propane on a cummins?
 
BOOM!!!!!!! My fingers hurt.....:hehe:

I'm sure it would do great on a Dodge CR those pistons love a little extra heat, talk about adding some extra events!
 
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