Why does Propane make a engine go boom? Timing

[Subman631]

My experience with propane was not good. I lifted the heads on my first dmax using it. I didn't have a clue what I was doing however. As far as LNG goes, Stingpuller used it during the mileage protion of the 2007 Diesel Power Challenge and ave'd over 30mph. He was upset it wasn't quite a bit higher, as it had been back home. The high altitude of Utah may have played a part in that.

 

[Charles]

That’s the point. Diesels are overbuilt so they can handle some extra stress without compromising durability. That is why i advise to only run under lower power output conditions i don't have the balls to inject propane into my engine already making 600+ HP. But if my engine will hold up to 600 HP on fuel then why can't it handle 100 hp plus maybe 10 extra on pane while im cruising down the highway? Soon as boost hits 30lbs and i make maybe 300 hp im done the pane stops flowing. Who cares if my engine needs rebuilt at 450,000 miles instead of 500,000. If I was saving 30% on my fuel bill. 450,000 miles / 16mpg=28,000 gallons of fuel. If I could save 20% at 3.00 per gallon I now have an extra $16,800.

If you want to purposefully subject your engine to the stresses of an 800+hp engine while only making 300 or so hp I doubt there's much anyone can tell you.



WOW! You popped a head gasket on a diesel truck with a chip on it! You’re the first to ever do that. I know 7.3 had few head gasket problems, but they were not immune to it. How many miles on your truck? Ever wonder if it would have let go anyways? I see this type of problem ALL the time with biodiesel, mechanics instantly blame the biodiesel for any engine problems when most of the time after they are done changing unnecessary parts they find out a ICP sensor or TPS is what was at fault. Biodiesel and propane have a very bad reputation. When something has a bad reputation it’s first to get blamed. Take kids for example if a kid has a bad reputation he is the first to get blamed when something happens. Is that really fair when there is no proof? What proof do you have that pane popped the gasket?

I suppose the fact that tons of 7.3's routinely make way more than that, often in excess of 600rwhp on those same gaskets when running fuel only is of no concern to you? The fact that after fixing the truck I went on to personally make over 400rwhp for around 3 years, over 480rwhp for a couple and over 540rwhp for a good while before a piston crack (from egt) eventually lost compression on #7 and I had to tear it down. But apparently it was just a fluke that the propane popped at less than 350rwhp after about a year. Just blind coincidence I suppose. I suppose the other engines I've seen that were running propane on stock injectors at the same pathetic power levles with short rods found on teardown, or windows in the block were also a fluke, correct? I'd appreciate it if you could at least be realistic if you want to at least pretend to be asking for real feedback here. My engine had ~240,000 miles on it IIRC. I guess it was just asking to go at 340ish hp then, nevermind a few friends of mine doing 650+rwhp on engines approaching 300,000 miles without any such failures of any kind... One of which dynoing 680 on Dunbar's and running mid 11's on fuel in a 4x4 reg cab. I guess we shouldn't assume that propane wouldn't have done just fine running 11's on a stock forged engine though...... right... (slaps forehead)

And I have no idea what my EGT's were doing. This was over 5 years ago, probably longer, that I ran the propane. It's been quite some time since I was dumb enough to run a combustible into the intake on a compression ignition engine, so I have forgotten some of the detail.



Also, if I am not hitting my fingers hard enough to hurt then why stop? If I inject a certain amount of propane into the motor and it doesn’t “hurt” then why stop? It can’t be worse than running timing at 30 degrees.

Why stop? Well, only if you mind beating the sh*t out of an engine for less than half the power you should be making for that level of stress is all. The fact that you think running 30* of INJECTION timing is the same as running the fuel into the cylinder ON THE INTAKE STROKE is hilarious. Yes, for heaven's sake, let's not place the fuel in the cylinder 30 whole degrees before TDC...... yes, yes, lets put the sh*t in the cylinder right after TDC in the INTAKE STROKE!!!!!

Dumb.... Ass...



I started this tread mainly to see what high HP applications failed because frankly the only stocks ones that blow are one being operated by idiots.

How so? Do you really just refuse to hear the truth or what? You're injecting a FUEL into the G'damn cylinder HUNDREDS of degrees before TDC and you somehow feel that you're outside this set of "idiots".


I really wish I could get a hold of a dyno and an engine to blow up just to do some tests.

Yes, you would have to go blow one up yourself wouldn't you? Heaven forbid you could turn your brain on and look around every once in a while. Then you might learn from the mistakes of OTHERS instead of beating your head into the wall to learn everything like a dumb ass by screwing it up yourself just like everyone before you. You act like propane injection is some cutting edge sh*t or something, lmao.

You never answered me do you know the ratio of pane to diesel you burned or how the pane affected your egts?

No idea. Whatever makes 80rwhp on a truck already producing 268rwhp on fuel dipsh*t.

:hehe:

 

[roachie]

So you could inject 3.58 gallons propane for every hour at 2000 RPM at 1.5ATM in a 5.9 liter engine WITHOUT preigniting on its own.

Charles has explained this, as have I.

You are having pre-ignition anytime the propane is in the engine.

Before TDC without boost the air temp is increased enough to burn diesel when it is injected into the cylinder (14*-20* BTDC). If not the engine would not idle.

The temps are high enough to ignite diesel in an 11:1 engine running 48* of timing. Not ignite very well but it is burning.

As stated before:

Propane auto-ignites at 842*F

Diesel auto-ignites at 410*F

Wait before you look too far into that.

The flash point of propane is 152*, and diesel is 143*.

Your average cylinder temp in a diesel engine is around 1000*F. Now if there is 900* in the cylinder at 48* BTDC with 11:1 compression, you know good and well a stock engine has more that enough to lite the propane way before TDC, likely not more than a 20* off BDC. Then at 10psi to that CR and see where your cylinder temps are.

Lets assume that your propane is only igniting at 60* BTDC at no boost. You engine is seeing the same stress as a engine running that timing at the same power level.

 

[BiodieselPower]

WOW. You get on here and call me a dumb ass repeatedly when you are overlooking obvious FACTS that I laid out. You really have proven that it is impossible to argue with an idiot. Did you not even read my post when I calculated the LEL? Was it too convincing or what? Not what you wanted to hear? I do thank you for challenging me on this because after doing some calculations I realize that if someone (not you) knows what there doing they are not going to blow their motor. At least preignition CAN’T be the cause.
EVERYONE please read this next paragraph:
Explosive limits give the proportion of combustible gases in a mixture, between which limits this mixture is flammable. Gas mixtures are only flammable under certain conditions. The lower flammable limit (LFL) (lower explosive limit) describes the leanest mixture that is still flammable, i.e. the mixture with the smallest fraction of combustible gas, while the upper flammable limit (UFL) (upper explosive limit) gives the richest flammable mixture.
Unless you have between 2.2-9.5% propane to air by weight I don’t care if the cylinder is 10,000 degrees and there is a spark plug it won’t ignite. Try to run a gas engine too lean guess what happens it won’t run not even with a spark plug same goes for too rich-the gasoline goes right out the exhaust. So in fact what happens in your cylinder when running propane is the diesel starts the fire (like a spark plug) then it burns the propane.
Big difference between autoingnition and flash point. I guess I have to draw a picture of a fire and me opening a propane valve into it: this is flash point. Flash point is the point it will burn when you have an open flame or spark neither of which is present in a diesel engine.
I can pump anything less than 2.2% propane by weight into a diesel and as soon as I stop injecting diesel the motor stops. ANYTHING NOT CLEAR ABOUT THIS?
If you **** is blowing up from propane it is not because the propane is preigniting unless you are just dumping in propane. Yeah think I’ll put a propane kit on they is either on or off. That makes since…not at low rpm you are not getting enough air into the cylinder to lean out the propane below LEL. So it is in fact preingiting…there are ya happy now you know why it blows motors. I suspect too many guys have done because with the cheap kits on the market you literately have no idea how much you putting in there, and you can way to easily increase it. And to get any real power increases you have to open the bottle a bit because you want an increase in horsepower while running 28 lbs boost-yet you turn on the kit a 7 lbs? That is about 1.5 ATM compared to 3 ATM so you are running propane twice as rich at 7lbs boost…probably enough to preignite it at 2.2% LEL. Basically you are putting enough in there to add 80 hp but you start doing it at 7lbs boost where you are only making maybe 100 to begin with now you’re at 180. That’s a huge increase. Its kinds like pull and pray it only works for a while.

If anyone has forgot the kit that I use is infinitely variable from 0psi to 60psi at each 1 lb boost increment the propane is raised so that there is never too much in there.

 

[roachie]

Im well aware of the difference in auto ignition and flash point. I just threw that is for additional info.

Um, you can run a diesel engine completely off propane if enough is shoved in. And no, it will not like it.

A lean mixture of propane will lite in a diesel because you a using its auto ignition point. NOT THE FLASH POINT.

Although, if we're right, the timing will be so severely advanced the burn will be completed before it is able to act sufficiently on downward thrust on the crank to keep the engine spinning.


The reason that a gasser wont run in a over lean condition is you ARE USING THE FLASH POINT. It has to have a stoichiometric air/fuel mixture to run.

You do realize that in the right F/A mixture propane becomes an explosive?

 

[BiodieselPower]

Im well aware of the difference in auto ignition and flash point. I just threw that is for additional info.

Um, you can run a diesel engine completely off propane if enough is shoved in. And no, it will not like it.

I know but it must be between the flammibility limits of 2.2%-9.5%.

A lean mixture of propane will lite in a diesel because you a using its auto ignition point. NOT THE FLASH POINT.

Neither point matters because the propane mixture is too lean to burn even with an open flame. Try injecting below .3% by weight of diesel and it won’t even start. This is about air fuel ratios not flash points and autoignition points.


Although, if we're right, the timing will be so severely advanced the burn will be completed before it is able to act sufficiently on downward thrust on the crank to keep the engine spinning.


Your wrong here too try to start a diesel on ether-keep spraying it and it keeps running, autoignition of diethyl ether is app. 338 Fahrenheit therefore it knocks like crazy because its blowing up way too soon, but the crank rotation keeps it going.


The reason that a gasser wont run in a over lean condition is you ARE USING THE FLASH POINT. It has to have a stoichiometric air/fuel mixture to run.

Sorry wrong again. So if gasoline is not at 14.7 to 1 the motor will die? You can’t run it rich or lean? You can run a gasoline engine anywhere from 1.4-7.6% which is an air/fuel ratio of anywhere from 13 to 1 up to about 70 to 1 it is ran at or near stoichiometric because it produces the best power and economy, and keeps the pistons from melting and detonation from occurring. I’ve seen lots of melted pistons in snowmobiles from running lean the motor is running fine right before it loses compression.

You do realize that in the right F/A mixture propane becomes an explosive?

Thanks for finally understanding my entire point at the RIGHT F/A mixture not the wrong one but the right one...this is very important you must have the RIGHT one. I’m saying when injecting fewer than 2.2% you cannot have preignition because propane is not explosive at this level under any circumstance it must mix with the diesel mist to become rich enough to burn.

 

[2500]

man that red hurts my eyes...

so far no one else has even mentioned the possibility of liquid propane going forward. if mixture is "tuned" for gas. then a slug of liquid goes forward.

that event would multiply amount of propane delivered.
it's my understanding, if too much propane is delivered, bad things will happen

Thanks for finally understanding my entire point at the RIGHT F/A mixture not the wrong one but the right one...this is very important you must have the RIGHT one. I’m saying when injecting fewer than 2.2% you cannot have preignition because propane is not explosive at this level under any circumstance it must mix with the diesel mist to become rich enough to burn.

 

[BiodieselPower]

Not likely with any kit because for liquid to go to the motor the vaporizer must fail. Also, the kit I use has a pressure switch that will turn the system off, plus the egt monitoring will shut the propane off as soon as egt is past whatever level I set it at.

 

[2500]

some kits use liquid... some use vapor
the one's I'm referring to like Bully dog uses vapor only. older versions don't have a water jacket on regulator, so if liquid gets to regulator. it's going to pass that liquid forward instead of vapor.

later versions uses engine coolant plumbed directly into regulator.
so if any liquid does accidentally gets to regulator, it will be vaporized.

propane will be liquid at bottom of tank, vapor on top. internal dip tubes depending on position will dispense liquid or vapor.

let's say your tank is a vapor tank with dip tube near top of tank.
if your truck hits a bump... it could easily get liquid splashed resulting in liquid going forward instead of vapor.

Not likely with any kit because for liquid to go to the motor the vaporizer must fail. Also, the kit I use has a pressure switch that will turn the system off, plus the egt monitoring will shut the propane off as soon as egt is past whatever level I set it at.

 

[roachie]

Thanks for finally understanding my entire point at the RIGHT F/A mixture not the wrong one but the right one...this is very important you must have the RIGHT one. I’m saying when injecting fewer than 2.2% you cannot have preignition because propane is not explosive at this level under any circumstance it must mix with the diesel mist to become rich enough to burn.

Here is the problem Im having with your argument. Try starting a spark ignition engine way too rich on anything, until it has the proper A/R it will not fire. Observe the smell of whatever fuel it is using out of the exhaust, because it hasnt burned.

Now try that with a modified diesel. Just flood the hell out of it with fuel. It will partially lite some fuel, just enough to make it smoke like a small leaf fire. Even though the thing is 2:1 on fuel air it is still burning what oxygen is available then going out. And it will do just the same on a lean mix.

As has been stated before, you are using the auto ignition point. The only way a substance will not ignite from compression is if its in a vacuum. At that point A/R controls the efficiency of the burn, not if it will burn.

Sorry wrong again. So if gasoline is not at 14.7 to 1 the motor will die? You can’t run it rich or lean? You can run a gasoline engine anywhere from 1.4-7.6% which is an air/fuel ratio of anywhere from 13 to 1 up to about 70 to 1 it is ran at or near stoichiometric because it produces the best power and economy, and keeps the pistons from melting and detonation from occurring. I’ve seen lots of melted pistons in snowmobiles from running lean the motor is running fine right before it loses compression.

Your reading too far into that, I used stoichiometric as a generalization. Not saying that they have to run at 14.7 or 12.1.

Your wrong here too try to start a diesel on ether-keep spraying it and it keeps running, autoignition of diethyl ether is app. 338 Fahrenheit therefore it knocks like crazy because its blowing up way too soon, but the crank rotation keeps it going.

Burn rate and BTU's have to be taken into account on that. I have no data for them on ether.


At this point I'm done with this discussion. You are ignoring simple set in stone facts trying to validate your argument. Even if the the propane doesn't ignite on the compression stroke, it is still sitting on the top of the piston just waiting for a spark, like a bomb. The damn pressure spike alone should be enough to get the hell away from using it.

 

[Charles]

Let me try to state the obvious again...


For starters, the thread title is as follows:

"Why does Propane make a engine go boom. Timing"


Hmmm. So the OP obviously already knows that #1, propane has a clear-cut track record of vaporizing engines, and #2 that it's due to timing.



Can someone explain the point of the thread again? I get confused easily.

 

[BiodieselPower]

Let me try to state the obvious again...


For starters, the thread title is as follows:

"Why does Propane make a engine go boom. Timing"


Hmmm. So the OP obviously already knows that #1, propane has a clear-cut track record of vaporizing engines, and #2 that it's due to timing.



Can someone explain the point of the thread again? I get confused easily.

If you get confused easily i suggest you stay off competitiondiesel.com I could suggest a few sites but its not worth my time you would just get confused.
To add to the confusion i want you to go to DeLuca Fuel Products Read the site, then call Marc and ask him how he can run propane or CNG at up to 96% gas 4% diesel before it detonates. I guess some guys can tune and some can't. I suppose that’s the difference between you and other people with running engines. It never feels good when you break something that was YOUR fault, so its easier to blame the propane rather than the person who tuned it. I'm pretty sure everyone makes mistakes in life-I’ll admit i do too.
For the record I’m not even convinced propane caused your truck with 240,000 miles on it to pop a head gasket. Besides you said your truck was preingniting I thought that put holes in pistons? Rather than blowing head gaskets. Ever heard of trucks under warranty popping head gaskets? Why would ford only warranty the 7.3 for 100,000 miles? That’s what the warranty is for to fix random parts that break earlier than they should. Otherwise we wouldn’t need warranties because the only way to break something would be to alter whatever the manufacture did. Headgaskets should never fail at 240,000 miles because Navistar built the engine properly. Lol.

 

[BiodieselPower]

Heres a good link for everyone too http://www.fireemup.com/pdf/New%20Brochere%20Draft%20E.pdf
Scroll down close to the bottom and you can see that Ford Motor Company has done testing with propane injection. O yeah the kits are almost EPA certified which means OEMs will not be able to void warranties on vehicles with the Diesel Magnum propane injection kit. EPA certification is a big deal and this will be the first propane injection kit to be certified.

 

[Charles]

If you get confused easily i suggest you stay off competitiondiesel.com I could suggest a few sites but its not worth my time you would just get confused.
To add to the confusion i want you to go to DeLuca Fuel Products Read the site, then call Marc and ask him how he can run propane or CNG at up to 96% gas 4% diesel before it detonates. I guess some guys can tune and some can't. I suppose that’s the difference between you and other people with running engines. It never feels good when you break something that was YOUR fault, so its easier to blame the propane rather than the person who tuned it. I'm pretty sure everyone makes mistakes in life-I’ll admit i do too.
For the record I’m not even convinced propane caused your truck with 240,000 miles on it to pop a head gasket. Besides you said your truck was preingniting I thought that put holes in pistons? Rather than blowing head gaskets. Ever heard of trucks under warranty popping head gaskets? Why would ford only warranty the 7.3 for 100,000 miles? That’s what the warranty is for to fix random parts that break earlier than they should. Otherwise we wouldn’t need warranties because the only way to break something would be to alter whatever the manufacture did. Headgaskets should never fail at 240,000 miles because Navistar built the engine properly. Lol.

You are delusional my friend...

I didn't tune the setup on my truck to my liking. I tuned it AS DIRECTED by not only the instructions that came with the kit.... but as instructed ON THE PHONE with the manufacturer themselves whom I called after initially driving it because it sounded OVERFUKINGTIMED to me after running it as set from them (which was billed as a working calibration that could be used without fail). I then went to the dyno after reducing the injection quantity myself, and after a bit of time I had it running 80 additional hp. EXACTLY 80% of what everybody I talked to said would be perfectly fine.

The truck made 340ish rwhp with the propane. Which is TOTALLY normal for a stock injectored 7.3 running propane that is set conservatively. I didn't mis-tune the truck, I intentionally erred 20% UNDER the manufacturer's listed safe point and it still popped ~ 1yr later. DEAL WITH IT.


And NO. Excessive cylinder pressures don't pop holes in pistons... Maybe you should stick to gassers my friend. Harsh CP spikes lift heads, bend rods and crack blocks. If anything to a piston, it would crack a ring land. Holes in pistons are almost always the result of a heat problem, not a CP problem. But that's just you showing your ignorance again.


Lastly, I have one popped headgasket (from the propane jerkoff, yes the fuking propane) and one set of cracked pistons from excessive egt (after 4+ YEARS) over the course of ~8 YEARS to my name in terms of engine failures on this truck. Never once have I not driven the truck after the point of failure. So it's not as if I annihilated the engine to the point of catastrophic failure. Coupling this with the fact that I've been running what sounds like multiple TIMES your power output for years and years now most sane individuals would take this to mean that I was actually doing a pretty fair job at tuning this truck.

I literally made between 400 and 500rwhp on fuel for ~4 years there on a stock forged engine, driving it every single day, and driving the sh*t out of it as usual. For a good while I was making between 530 and 550 on that same engine. Probably 1 year or so like that before thermal piston cracks (developed from before when running the engine on a single charger unable to clean the fuel) ended up biting me in the ass one day when I forgot to make some warmup pulls and ended up hitting the engine hard while it was cold, causing a crack on #7 to split down into the bottom of the bowl, dropping compression on that hole.

You go ahead and make a list of people running for that many years at those power levels with a 7.3L Daily driver for me right quick. Actually, why don't you get your buddy Marc to tune me one that's making 450rwhp running an otherwise stock engine with propane. How many months would you give that?


You are quite literally blind here. Are you honestly this unaware of the death toll due to injecting propane into a compression ignition engine? Your thread title says otherwise. Says you do know it, and you're trying to justify your miserable existence anyway.

All of you morons are the same. Any of you ever hits a dyno and you either don't make jack SH*T for power, or you're sh*t blows up within the year. It's either one of the two there nancy. There is no middle ground.

And so you know, I didn't start laying into you until you quoted my description of how my propane was set up and then directly followed that by stating that anyone who blows up otherwise stock trucks with propane is an idiot.

Also, my same old daily driver, same old engine that cracked the pistons that I have since rebuilt now makes 600+ on fuel day in and day out. And this one has been running ~550 to ~650 for coming up on 3 years now.

You tell me how, and I'll sell all this sh*t and just go buy whatever propane setup you want. Hell, I'll even let your buddy Marc "tune" it.

You'll still consistently make 600+hp (an additional 400 or so over stock) when running the propane correct? I suppose you'll wave your magic wand over my engine and command the compression ratio, intake air temp, piston dome temp and all else to safeguard that propane on it's way to TDC.


When you stated that some people can tune, and some can't..... did you really mean that some people are capable of the metaphysical, and some aren't? I'm not. I'm not capable of operating an engine outside the bounds of physics.

(looks at boots)

 

[BiodieselPower]

Where to start…lets see lets say I put Walmart’s Super Tech engine oil into my high p

You are delusional my friend...

I didn't tune the setup on my truck to my liking. I tuned it AS DIRECTED by not only the instructions that came with the kit.... but as instructed ON THE PHONE with the manufacturer themselves whom I called after initially driving it because it sounded OVERFUKINGTIMED to me after running it as set from them (which was billed as a working calibration that could be used without fail). I then went to the dyno after reducing the injection quantity myself, and after a bit of time I had it running 80 additional hp. EXACTLY 80% of what everybody I talked to said would be perfectly fine.

The truck made 340ish rwhp with the propane. Which is TOTALLY normal for a stock injectored 7.3 running propane that is set conservatively. I didn't mis-tune the truck, I intentionally erred 20% UNDER the manufacturer's listed safe point and it still popped ~ 1yr later. DEAL WITH IT.


And NO. Excessive cylinder pressures don't pop holes in pistons... Maybe you should stick to gassers my friend. Harsh CP spikes lift heads, bend rods and crack blocks. If anything to a piston, it would crack a ring land. Holes in pistons are almost always the result of a heat problem, not a CP problem. But that's just you showing your ignorance again.


Lastly, I have one popped headgasket (from the propane jerkoff, yes the fuking propane) and one set of cracked pistons from excessive egt (after 4+ YEARS) over the course of ~8 YEARS to my name in terms of engine failures on this truck. Never once have I not driven the truck after the point of failure. So it's not as if I annihilated the engine to the point of catastrophic failure. Coupling this with the fact that I've been running what sounds like multiple TIMES your power output for years and years now most sane individuals would take this to mean that I was actually doing a pretty fair job at tuning this truck.

I literally made between 400 and 500rwhp on fuel for ~4 years there on a stock forged engine, driving it every single day, and driving the sh*t out of it as usual. For a good while I was making between 530 and 550 on that same engine. Probably 1 year or so like that before thermal piston cracks (developed from before when running the engine on a single charger unable to clean the fuel) ended up biting me in the ass one day when I forgot to make some warmup pulls and ended up hitting the engine hard while it was cold, causing a crack on #7 to split down into the bottom of the bowl, dropping compression on that hole.

You go ahead and make a list of people running for that many years at those power levels with a 7.3L Daily driver for me right quick. Actually, why don't you get your buddy Marc to tune me one that's making 450rwhp running an otherwise stock engine with propane. How many months would you give that?


You are quite literally blind here. Are you honestly this unaware of the death toll due to injecting propane into a compression ignition engine? Your thread title says otherwise. Says you do know it, and you're trying to justify your miserable existence anyway.

All of you morons are the same. Any of you ever hits a dyno and you either don't make jack SH*T for power, or you're sh*t blows up within the year. It's either one of the two there nancy. There is no middle ground.

And so you know, I didn't start laying into you until you quoted my description of how my propane was set up and then directly followed that by stating that anyone who blows up otherwise stock trucks with propane is an idiot.

Also, my same old daily driver, same old engine that cracked the pistons that I have since rebuilt now makes 600+ on fuel day in and day out. And this one has been running ~550 to ~650 for coming up on 3 years now.

You tell me how, and I'll sell all this sh*t and just go buy whatever propane setup you want. Hell, I'll even let your buddy Marc "tune" it.

You'll still consistently make 600+hp (an additional 400 or so over stock) when running the propane correct? I suppose you'll wave your magic wand over my engine and command the compression ratio, intake air temp, piston dome temp and all else to safeguard that propane on it's way to TDC.


When you stated that some people can tune, and some can't..... did you really mean that some people are capable of the metaphysical, and some aren't? I'm not. I'm not capable of operating an engine outside the bounds of physics.

(looks at boots)

Where to start…lets see lets say I put Walmart’s Super Tech engine oil into my high performance diesel engine running 5,000 rpm(i mean it does say high performance right on the bottle). I make sure to do it exactly how they tell me to and I run it more a few years on my new engine rebuild and after 50,000 miles my bearings are shot. Or I buy a cheap Chinese air filter and guess what my rings are gone. Point is just because something is manufactured does not mean it will work not all parts are created equally. Why will a cheap aftermarket programmer cause more damage than a custom one running more power. By all means the manufacture says it’s ok. Let me guess you run a superchip on your 500hp powerstroke, I bet not. I bet you would not even want to run one even if it made the same power. You have a custom chip to take advantage of your other mods.

What I am saying is the kits available like the one you ran are cheap not tunable. You set the flow rate and it’s the same from 7psi up to 28 psi. So at 7psi your putting in enough propane to run an extra 80hp…ouch the motor probably is not gonna like that. The air fuel ratio is to high and you break past the LEL and bam you got preignition. If you were able to dial that in like I can with my kit then you will be fine. On my truck the difference between 7psi and 28 psi is at 28 I put about 3 times as much propane in. Guess what here is something that will stump you, the truck runs quieter. Yes quieter not louder, o wait but it is preigniting. How does preignition make a engine quieter. I ran propane on my powerstroke for two years and I loved it because on the highway it made the engine noise almost disappear. At idle to see if the kit is working we turn the propane up till the motor quiets down-turn it up some more and it gets louder…preignition I guess you were right propane makes preignition. But only when too much is in there.

Example I know a farmer that had to rebuild a motor after ruining a motor using TS performances kit. Now they use the same kit im using and have made it through 2 harvests.

Let me guess if you were running propane when you cracked your piston-the propane would have been at fualt. Always the propanes fault.

I started the tread to see why others have so much trouble and wanted to know what the difference was in what they did compared to what I have been doing. I didn’t realize until recently that the cheap kits are not adjustable between boost levels.

As far as im concerned propane is no different than any other fuel into an internal combustion engine. It must be done right. Period.

As far as high HP applications im still up in the air because when temperature and pressure rises it lowers the LEL. This is what scares me and is why I turn my kit off at 30psi. Also I did what the manufacture says to and that is to set the EGT failsafe shutoff to 1100 degrees this way if im towing and it is getting to hot it turns off the propane eliminating any chance for preignition.

Marc is not my “buddy” either I just called him and talked to him for ten minutes and yes some of what he does scares me, but he says it works.

Doesn’t detonation cause high cylinder pressure, and doesn't high pressures cause heat? You said heat puts holes in pistons. You were running a chip that increased your timing I would assume then you add propane and wonder why your cylinder pressure/heat goes up. O wait I already mentioned that in the title of the tread.

Here is my personal favorite:

"Coupling this with the fact that I've been running what sounds like multiple TIMES your power output for years and years now"

Lets see my truck: 5.9 cummins, 12v, 215 p pump, DDP stage 4’s, two turbos, marine coated pistons, quickspool cam, ported head/with o rings, Haisley valve springs, 4000 RPM governor, girdle kit, ATS manifold, Banks twin ram, hypermax innercooler.

Your truck: powerstroke-you had better have very deep pockets to make the power mine is capable of.

Yeah I would say your truck makes at least 2-4 times the power of mine…if not more. After all I have a 215 HP pump on mine and that’s rated at the flywheel.

By the way i ran my powerstroke for 2+ years running propane and biodiesel. GASP but those two fuel are no good i keep being told. Guess what else the only failures i had were the stock transmission. I put a set of brakes on too.

 

[Charles]

Where to start…lets see lets say I put Walmart’s Super Tech engine oil into my high performance diesel engine running 5,000 rpm(i mean it does say high performance right on the bottle). I make sure to do it exactly how they tell me to and I run it more a few years on my new engine rebuild and after 50,000 miles my bearings are shot. Or I buy a cheap Chinese air filter and guess what my rings are gone. Point is just because something is manufactured does not mean it will work not all parts are created equally. Why will a cheap aftermarket programmer cause more damage than a custom one running more power. By all means the manufacture says it’s ok. Let me guess you run a superchip on your 500hp powerstroke, I bet not. I bet you would not even want to run one even if it made the same power. You have a custom chip to take advantage of your other mods.

Was there some point to that paragraph? It's almost like you want to fault me as an idiot for improper tuning, then tell me I'm an idiot for tuning it precisely as instructed by the kit manufacturer. And it was a PS2000 kit, not a guy on the corner with some brass fittings and hose... Secondly, I write my own programming. And Lastly I don't have a 500hp powerstroke.



What I am saying is the kits available like the one you ran are cheap not tunable. You set the flow rate and it’s the same from 7psi up to 28 psi. So at 7psi your putting in enough propane to run an extra 80hp…ouch the motor probably is not gonna like that. The air fuel ratio is to high and you break past the LEL and bam you got preignition. If you were able to dial that in like I can with my kit then you will be fine. On my truck the difference between 7psi and 28 psi is at 28 I put about 3 times as much propane in. Guess what here is something that will stump you, the truck runs quieter. Yes quieter not louder, o wait but it is preigniting. How does preignition make a engine quieter. I ran propane on my powerstroke for two years and I loved it because on the highway it made the engine noise almost disappear. At idle to see if the kit is working we turn the propane up till the motor quiets down-turn it up some more and it gets louder…preignition I guess you were right propane makes preignition. But only when too much is in there.

The truth will set you free...

First off, my kit was most certainly adjustable, and it most certainly ramped up the flow based on boost. You set the minimum pressure where it starts injecting, and you set the pressure where it's injecting your maximum flow value, which you then set separately from either of those. IIRC I had it starting at ~7 to 10psi and going full flow (80 whole hp worth) by 28psi.

Secondly. Yet again you demonstrate your ignorance... You obviously need to stick to gassers, because you obviously have no clue where the "diesel" sound comes from in a diesel. That "rattle" sound you said you heard go away with added propane, was ignition delay DA. That classic "diesel" sound is the sound of fuel being injected into a cylinder and then building a pocket of fuel faster than combustion can begin. The sound comes when the autoignition point is finally reached and that pocket of fuel rapidly combusts. As boost/heat increases you will notice this sound diminish. This is because the ignition delay is reduced, and the pocket of fuel forming before full combustion commences is getting smaller and smaller. Resulting in less fuel to rapidly combust once auto-ignition is reached and flame-front propogation takes off full force. The engine quietens because the delay is reduced. So it gets quieter when you inject the propane..... well no S sherlock. There's little to no delay anymore, because the propane IS BURNING!!! You're not going to get a pocket of diesel fuel building when you've got a developed flame!

Dude, you clearly have NO idea how compression ignition is working. The fact that you are this lost should be an indicator that you might need to re-asses your position.




Example I know a farmer that had to rebuild a motor after ruining a motor using TS performances kit. Now they use the same kit im using and have made it through 2 harvests.

Wow, so they ran propane (I'm assuming that was the "TS kit" you're referencing) and lost an engine. (Not really helping your case here bud). And now they've gone 2 whole harvests on a SINGLE engine?????...... holy cannoli. (slaps forehead)

What a feat.

:smirk:




Let me guess if you were running propane when you cracked your piston-the propane would have been at fualt. Always the propanes fault.

The propane injection lifted the heads on my truck DA. Ran for years without it.... fine. Installed it, ~1yr later headgasket is done on a truck running AB INJECTORS MAKING 268 FUKING HORSEPOWER WITHOUT THE PROPANE!!!! Wake the fuk up! G'damn stock injectored AB split 7.3's on stock EVERYTHING but a f'ing chip don't blow headgaskets you ignorant fuk!



I started the tread to see why others have so much trouble and wanted to know what the difference was in what they did compared to what I have been doing. I didn’t realize until recently that the cheap kits are not adjustable between boost levels.

Your kit isn't special numb nuts. You haven't rodded an engine because YOU'RE NOT MAKING ANY POWER! It's not a G'damn mystery. And the "cheap" kits DO bring in the propane proportionately with manifold pressure...



As far as im concerned propane is no different than any other fuel into an internal combustion engine. It must be done right. Period.

Can you PLEASE get your head around the fact that with the propane you're running approximately THREE HUNDRED AND SIXTY DEGREES OF ADVANCE??? The difference is that you have an UNTIMED fuel in the F'ing cylinder. PPPPPPPPPLEASE get that through your head.




As far as high HP applications im still up in the air because when temperature and pressure rises it lowers the LEL. This is what scares me and is why I turn my kit off at 30psi. Also I did what the manufacture says to and that is to set the EGT failsafe shutoff to 1100 degrees this way if im towing and it is getting to hot it turns off the propane eliminating any chance for preignition.

You're up in the air on "high hp" because your junk makes 40 to 60ish freakin more hp than stock. You wouldn't know the first thing about a "high hp" diesel.



Marc is not my “buddy” either I just called him and talked to him for ten minutes and yes some of what he does scares me, but he says it works.

Doesn’t detonation cause high cylinder pressure, and doesn't high pressures cause heat? You said heat puts holes in pistons. You were running a chip that increased your timing I would assume then you add propane and wonder why your cylinder pressure/heat goes up. O wait I already mentioned that in the title of the tread.

Go buy a gasser. Please God, just go buy a fuking gasser. Cause that's all your head can handle.



Here is my personal favorite:

"Coupling this with the fact that I've been running what sounds like multiple TIMES your power output for years and years now"

Lets see my truck: 5.9 cummins, 12v, 215 p pump, DDP stage 4’s, two turbos, marine coated pistons, quickspool cam, ported head/with o rings, Haisley valve springs, 4000 RPM governor, girdle kit, ATS manifold, Banks twin ram, hypermax innercooler.

Your truck: powerstroke-you had better have very deep pockets to make the power mine is capable of.

Yeah I would say your truck makes at least 2-4 times the power of mine…if not more. After all I have a 215 HP pump on mine and that’s rated at the flywheel.


So what's it dyno dickweed? And what does the propane along add to that aww-inspiring number?

(falls asleep....)




By the way i ran my powerstroke for 2+ years running propane and biodiesel. GASP but those two fuel are no good i keep being told. Guess what else the only failures i had were the stock transmission. I put a set of brakes on too.


Holy moly....

Hang on.... lemme go throw some propane on my truck too. I'll set it so that it makes 1 whole additional horsepower at peak. Then I can say how mine is fine with the propane too.... Te-he, te-he.

I believe this thread needs to know exactly how much power you're making with and without the propane pronto.

 

[WUnderwood]

BiodieselPower - what propane company do you work for?

and when I think about propane and diesel truck performance, I DO NOT think they go hand in hand

 

[2500]

just got off the line with bully dog.... they make a claim that I find very hard to swallow.

they claim the amount of propane delivered changes as boost goes up. as amount of air increase, intake vacuum increases pulling more propane.

it's my understanding the turbo boost switch is normally closed until 7 psi is reached, then selenoid is engaged releasing propane.

someone correct me if I'm wrong.... it's my understanding propane vapor flow is limited by regulator. so flow of propane would have to be the same upon initial opening at 7 psi...the same at 25 psi or at any pressure higher than 7 psi.

the low vacuum created by air flow would have zero effect on how much propane is released. so as cfm increases, propane to air ratio would have to go down.

which should not hurt the diesel engine, since it runs fine with no propane at all.

Bully dog has verified that what does hurt the motor is too much propane delivered to motor. allowing propane to pool in manifold.

if a slug of liquid propane accidentally gets by regulator, this would cause problems. so any propane system without a coolant jacket or any other way to heat regulator could potentially send a slug of liquid propane forward resulting in damage to motor.

a question for the folks that's damaged a motor running propane...
did your propane regulator have a method to vaporize liquid propane, if propane should accidentally come forward as liquid?

 

[Charles]

just got off the line with bully dog.... they make a claim that I find very hard to swallow.

they claim the amount of propane delivered changes as boost goes up. as amount of air increase, intake vacuum increases pulling more propane.

it's my understanding the turbo boost switch is normally closed until 7 psi is reached, then selenoid is engaged releasing propane.

someone correct me if I'm wrong.... it's my understanding propane vapor flow is limited by regulator. so flow of propane would have to be the same upon initial opening at 7 psi...the same at 25 psi or at any pressure higher than 7 psi.

the low vacuum created by air flow would have zero effect on how much propane is released. so as cfm increases, propane to air ratio would have to go down.

which should not hurt the diesel engine, since it runs fine with no propane at all.

Bully dog has verified that what does hurt the motor is too much propane delivered to motor. allowing propane to pool in manifold.

if a slug of liquid propane accidentally gets by regulator, this would cause problems. so any propane system without a coolant jacket or any other way to heat regulator could potentially send a slug of liquid propane forward resulting in damage to motor.

a question for the folks that's damaged a motor running propane...
did your propane regulator have a method to vaporize liquid propane, if propane should accidentally come forward as liquid?

The FS2000 I was running did not. However, I don't think this was the cause of failure. I could audibly hear/feel what I described as advanced timing when it was on, even though everyone I talked to explained to me that the propane had no effect on timing..... When in fact that was true, it had no effect on injection timing for the actual diesel fuel, however, it was drastically effecting the timing of combustion in the cylinder. For me, the problem developed when towing. I was hauling ass pulling another truck down the interstate and in-cylinder temperatures exceeded the auto-ignition point for the propane farther and farther in advance of TDC until the subsequent burn, and the subsequent effect on diesel fuel injected into an environment already engulfed in flame resulted in cylinder pressures above and beyond what the headgasket could withstand. At a mere 340ish rwhp no less.

I pummeled that engine to death with that propane. It was ignorant on my part. I should have trusted my better judgment and pulled that sh*t off of my truck after the first test drive.

Something I forgot about until now...

Even though it puked like crazy any time I was hard in the throttle after this point, and eventually had white smoke out the tailpipe at times, after removing the propane it STOPPED PUKING. I drove another 3 months with the propane proping the barn door open without issue until I popped a hpop and just decided to go ahead and yank my early 99 engine and swap in a late model engine with AD injectors, larger Garrett, larger hpop, ability to run a 38R, so on and so forth. Funny how it completely stopped lifting the heads once the propane was removed. Especially since the propane wasn't the problem and all...

 

[Charles]

Biodieselpower:


http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/videos/video_2.html